Lieder

What do you guys think of the tradition of lieder?

I'm tinkering around with setting "'Twas the Night befor Christmas" to music.

Anyone here have any experienceof that?

Suggestions would be appreciated!

I never quite understood why you English speaking people always called it by a German name - what's wrong with "songs"? (Or does "Lieder" in this usage just refer to a specific tradition of songs?) And well, it's hard to make concrete suggestions. It's not that different from writing for instruments, just that you have a text, which may or may not be closely linked to the music. (And "linked" doesn't mean just to "do what's in the text", it may at times even mean the contrary.)

Of course you need to be aware of the capabilities of the voice (and you should be aware of -what- voice you're writing for), especially since every vowel is kind of like a different instrument, with different resonances and somewhat different ranges. But unless you tell us more what kind of song you want to do, it's hard to help a lot.

I never quite understood why you English speaking people always called it by a German name - what's wrong with "songs"? (Or does "Lieder" in this usage just refer to a specific tradition of songs?) And well, it's hard to make concrete suggestions. It's not that different from writing for instruments, just that you have a text, which may or may not be closely linked to the music. (And "linked" doesn't mean just to "do what's in the text", it may at times even mean the contrary.)

Of course you need to be aware of the capabilities of the voice (and you should be aware of -what- voice you're writing for), especially since every vowel is kind of like a different instrument, with different resonances and somewhat different ranges. But unless you tell us more what kind of song you want to do, it's hard to help a lot.

Uh... yes a Lied is different from a song. A Lied has obbligato piano accompaniment and is absolute-pitch.

Uh... yes a Lied is different from a song. A Lied has obbligato piano accompaniment and is absolute-pitch.

not quite sure where you got that definition, but it's not what I've been taught.

A "lied" is simply the German name for the English "Art Song".

And since the full German term for what you seem to be referring to is "Kunstlied" (i.e. literally "Art Song"), that means the term "Lied" (that also can refer to folk songs, pop songs, etc.) is pretty much the same as "Song".

I never quite understood why you English speaking people always called it by a German name - what's wrong with "songs"? (Or does "Lieder" in this usage just refer to a specific tradition of songs?)

HALT!

I do believe that "Lied" (regardless if we're using Kunstlied or not) refers to the German tradition and therefore you should as well use the German name. The point being that in this way there's no mistaking what you're talking about (and as far as I know I (and everyone I've met when talking about this) also use Chansons for talking about the french-tradition of the very same thing, yay!)

Saying just "song" I guess is fine too; but if it's possible to be extra accurate, why not just use the names in the corresponding languages of the tradition you're referring to? So yeah, the second thing you said there applies. :x

Anyways, I love both Lieder and Chansons a lot (specially Grieg, Faur

They're "art songs".

Why not simply do like all english-speaking composers have done and call them "songs"?

Edward McDowell has "songs" for voice and piano in his catalogue.

Samuel Barber has entire books of "songs" for voice and piano.

Ned Rorem has literally hundreds of "songs" for voice and piano.

Peter Warlock has books of "songs" for voice and piano.

Benjamin Britten has "songs" for voice and piano listed in his catalogue.

There is no formal difference between any of the "lied" anyone has mentionned and these "art songs".

The only instances I've seen of English-speaking composers naming their pieces "chanson" or "lied" have been where they were actually using French or German texts!

French art song and German art song have their distinctive styles, hence the names in order to distinguish them better. Makes it clearer.

French art song and German art song have their distinctive styles, hence the names in order to distinguish them better. Makes it clearer.

say what?

The only reason they have "distinctive styles" is that most of the german lied composers come from 50 years prior to the French composers who wrote significant amounts of chansons.

Obviously Schubert has a "distinctive style" when compared to Faur

I'd think there's a much greater stylistic difference between a "Lied" by Mozart, Schubert and Berg than between an English "Song", a German "Lied" and a French "Chanson" of a similar epoch/musical line. "Lied" is an extremely open term, in German, just like "Song" or "Chanson".

But I guess it's a bit besides the topic to discuss such semantics here. And it doesn't really matter that much. Sorry for bringing it up :P

say what?

The only reason they have "distinctive styles" is that most of the german lied composers come from 50 years prior to the French composers who wrote significant amounts of chansons.

Obviously Schubert has a "distinctive style" when compared to Faur