Scores for Studying Orchestration

I would like to make some kind of a list of scores which everyone interested in great orchestration should study. And I would need all of your suggestions to help me achieve this.

Perhaps more emphasis should be given to more obscure and modern pieces, but that does not mean we should disregard the freat, classic, well-known beautifully orchestrated scores.

Also, I would very much appreciate it if you said why exactly do you find a piece interesting.

[*]Igor Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring, The Firebird

[*]Richard Strauss: all tone poems, The Woman Without a Shadow

[*]Maurice Ravel: Daphnis et Chlo

Great list already. For some more "modern classics", I'd add:

G

Gardener, do you have any particular view on Hans Werner Henze? He uses a lot of "weird" stuff: Inka flutes, Caribbean percussion, oboe d'amore, tenor banjo, viola d'amore...

Yeah, Henze is great to study too. El Cimarr

If you want to learn about percussion:

Montana Music by David Maslanka

Concerto for Percussion Ensemble by David Gillingham

Adaptation by Nathan Daughtrey

Those are good to start with. And they dont' really cost too much, to get the study score.

Are we talking compositionally or orchestrationally? Because for percussion, studying those percussion ensembles will give you a lot of information, and those three pieces are fairly diverse.

If you are looking to study these scores, I think the list you have has years worth of study material. I'm not talking about just listening to the CD while reading the score, but really diving in to the unique timbre combinations found in scores. At first, when I saw Scheonberg's GurreLieder on the list, I thought that wasn't a practical example of orchestration but then I remembered how unique his sound world was in that work, so I do agree that there is much to learn from a study of that work. He certainly had an ear for exotic combinations which can be learned from. I just love the strange sounds in his Pelleas und Melisande's "In gehender Bewegung". Ideally you get to play with an orchestra and try different combinations to understand what makes them work. Next best thing is to try making a convincing mockup from these scores so you can see how the little touches changes things. For example, I once did a mockup of Also Sprach Zarathustra, and though the second tuba might seem gratuitous on the surface, when you add that element in, it does add quite a bit and I believe Strauss was fully aware of why he needed two tubas and chose its placement deliberately. So taking time to really explore these scores will give you so much to study and analyze if you are looking to understand orchestration.

Some other works I like the orchestration of:

Prokofiev's Love of the Three Oranges Suite, Symphony No. 3

Pendericki's Threnody is another good extended technique dictionary

Well, I was referring to orchestration but the two are pretty intertwined - it's hard to separate them. I didn't get much from those scores that I didn't already get from Varese's and Messiaen's percussion writing... just my experience.

I don't think composition and orchestration are that intertwined. Sibelius's Kullervo is an example of a good composition but mediocre orchestration. I think some passages suffer from balance considerations and some background motifs repeat too much without enough variety that it could tire the players and bore an audience. Don't get me wrong, its not bad music, but we can see Sibelius was beginning in his orchestration skills yet was a very distinctive composer already. Some composers hide dull compositions behind exotic orchestrations and colorful timbre because it is a device that can make things sound better than they were written.

I guess it differs a lot from composer to composer. Some composers did think from the piano, or some abstract tone idea first before actually orchestrating their music. But for others the whole composition is born with an instrumental idea in mind, in which case you can't really separate composition and orchestration (as there really is no such thing as "orchestration" then). It would be nonsensical to discuss most spectralist music, most orchestral music by Ligeti, Lachenmann etc. independantly of their "orchestration". You mentioned Penderecki's Threnody yourself: The orchestral sounds are the actual core of this music, so you can't separate "orchestration" from "composition".

And to a less extreme degree that also goes for so many other compositions too, particularly if they are based on certain sound colours or instrumental gestures. Only a few composers actually seperate orchestration from all other composition processes.

If you are looking to study these scores, I think the list you have has years worth of study material. I'm not talking about just listening to the CD while reading the score, but really diving in to the unique timbre combinations found in scores. At first, when I saw Scheonberg's GurreLieder on the list, I thought that wasn't a practical example of orchestration but then I remembered how unique his sound world was in that work, so I do agree that there is much to learn from a study of that work. He certainly had an ear for exotic combinations which can be learned from.

That's strange because that work is regarded by many as a total bible of orchestration since there's hardly an orchestration technique that hasn't been used in the work (same is true for Ravel's Daphnis). It uses, as all here know, a monstrously big orchestra: something like 8 flutes, various types of clarinets & trumpets, 7 trombones (including alto, bass and contrabass). All used with great restraint, even that huge complement of 10 horns (4 of which double on Wagner tubas). (Apparently, for Hollywood this is nothing, especially for Elliot Goldenthal: he and his favourite orchestrator never use less than 8 horns!)

Perhaps I would also add to this list:

[*]Var

That's strange because that work is regarded by many as a total bible of orchestration since there's hardly an orchestration technique that hasn't been used in the work (same is true for Ravel's Daphnis). It uses, as all here now, a monstrously big orchestra: something like 8 flutes, various types of clarinets & trumpets, 7 trombones (including alto, bass and contrabass). All used with great restraint, even that huge complement of 10 horns (4 of which double on Wagner tubas). Apparently, for Hollywood this is nothing, especially for Elliot Goldenthal: he and his favourite orchestrator never use less than 8 horns!

Perhaps I would also add to this list:

[*]Var

(Apparently, for Hollywood this is nothing, especially for Elliot Goldenthal: he and his favourite orchestrator never use less than 8 horns!)

One more thing - just remember Hollywood orchestration doesn't follow concert music orchestration 1 to 1. Film music is scored knowing it MUST be recorded fast and they'll have a 24-48 microphone set up and can raise the isolated levels of a harp against the ffff brass and still have it be heard clearly.

If looking for a model of restraint, Gurrelieder probably isn't the best model. Don't get me wrong, it is an incredible achievement of late romanticism and one of my very favorites, but from the list of masterworks you have assembled in this thread, Gurrelider is probably on the side of less applicable than say Vaughan Williams Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis would be.

By restraint I meant: those ten horns rarely blast together at the same time. Only in part three when Waldemar's men appear there's a fanfare for these brass. Am I correct? And there's rarely a full-blown, roof-rattling tutti from the orchestra. It is such a fantastic piece... :wub:

I think this brings up the question of what are you looking for in your study of orchestration - is it to gain an effective musical clarity using the various forces at your disposal in the most concise though creative manner or is it to find a unique combination of sounds and interesting conceptual ideas?

Well, both. The approach, I believe, depends on the work. I think people visiting these boards are aware that the works listed cover a variety of styles and that they will study a particular score just to get the grasp of a particular style. I don't think one would study Daphnis in order to master Baroque orchestration. Am I wrong?

If you like the Gurelieder sound, there are few better examples of that thing other than it, Brian's Gothic, some Mahler. But if you are looking for practical orchestration techniques you might do better with the standards - at least as an introduction. Remember these guys mastered the basics and when that wasn't enough for their visions, they pushed the mechanics further, but it still starts with the basics in my opinion which is why I think Gurrelieder probably isn't the best place to start. Does that mean I find it worthless? Absolutely not! Just that the ratio of things you should not learn from to what is valuable and transferable might be better in some other scores. This is certainly subjective, but you are asking for opinions here.

OK, I'm surprised. Are you saying that the Gothic is better orchestrated? :hmmm: I'm not sure I would agree. Perhaps Mahler's Second, but they're vastly different types of work.

I guess that when one starts learning this craft (or art), you first start with learning thoroughly the different types of instruments (strings, winds...) then write a strings piece and follow that with Baroque and a due works to later expand on triple, quadruple winds etc.

I guess a thorough knowledge of Gurre-Lieder is a kind of equivalent of a PhD thesis in orchestration.

Which other, more basic works would you recommend?

By restraint I meant: those ten horns rarely blast together at the same time. Only in part three when Waldemar's men appear there's a fanfare for these brass. Am I correct? And there's rarely a full-blown, roof-rattling tutti from the orchestra. It is such a fantastic piece... :wub:

Well, both. The approach, I believe, depends on the work. I think people visiting these boards are aware that the works listed cover a variety of styles and that they will study a particular score just to get the grasp of a particular style. I don't think one would study Daphnis in order to master Baroque orchestration. Am I wrong?

OK, I'm surprised. Are you saying that the Gothic is better orchestrated? :hmmm: I'm not sure I would agree. Perhaps Mahler's Second, but they're vastly different types of work.

I guess that when one starts learning this craft (or art), you first start with learning thoroughly the different types of instruments (strings, winds...) then write a strings piece and follow that with Baroque and a due works to later expand on triple, quadruple winds etc.

I guess a thorough knowledge of Gurre-Lieder is a kind of equivalent of a PhD thesis in orchestration.

Which other, more basic works would you recommend?

Brian's Gothic is certainly not as refined as Gurrelieder but shares the late-romantic gigantic orchestration and many unique sound combinations and exoticism that you'll find in much of Gurrelieder. Schoenberg uses all 10 horns as early as bar 14 of the work. The chorus is definitely sparingly used and does not come till Waldamer's men and the final ending of the massive chorus. To me, it is not so much an element of restraint as it is good form that we see here. The grand climax is where it should be though there are mini-climaxes along the way.

I would consider Gurrelieder like "War and Peace". If someone was looking for good examples of story telling, I think something like "Of Mice and Men", "Moby Dick", "Pride and Prejudice", "To Kill a Mockingbird", "Death of a Salesman", etc., might be better models. Does that mean "War and Peace" is rubbish? Of course not - just a very challenging work to examine on the grounds of learning story telling basics. When Tolstoy set out to write "War and Peace" I would venture to say he had a deep mastery of story telling 101 first. Of course read it and enjoy it but more likely, a person would just get a better understanding of the technique and devices used in story telling by fully understanding a smaller masterwork rather than a cursory understanding of such a massively complex work.

I would agree! That is why I said it's like graduate school of orchestration.

But could you list, when you find the time, those basic works, exquisitely orchestrated? :D

I didn't get much from those scores that I didn't already get from Varese's and Messiaen's percussion writing... just my experience.

I think you might want to revisit the percussion scores of Maslanka and Gillingham. Being the first to write for percussion ensemble, Var

How about Percy Grainger's The Warriors? :hmmm:

Recommend another Ligeti for string techniques and scordatura (one set of strings are a 1/4 tone out of tune) - his Ramifications. Great work, great study.

Also, Gloria Coates string quartets for innovative use of glissandi and the wedding of unusual techniques with traditional forms (canon, etc).

Oh, another Prokofiev I recommend for score study - his 5th symphony. The interests is his coupling and contrasting of instrumental groups and how well the percussion group is meshed into the piece. Granted it doesn't have much of a soloistic role but the rhythmic drive and color it adds to the other instrumental groups is great.

Ligeti- Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto, Melodien

Bartok- Rhapsody No. 1 for Violin and Orchestra (there's a part in the fast section that's very strange, even for Bartok), Divertimento for Strings

Stravinsky- Symphony of Psalms

Lutoslawski- Cello Concerto

Webern- Symphonie, Konzert, F

Orchestration:

One man and one man only:

Herr Gustav Mahler

Cuz studying one person only is not limitative at all.

Cuz studying one person only is not limitative at all.

No not at all!

:P

Lol...as much as I love mahler..he can't be my one and only.

Bruckner orchestrates excellently though..although he isn't modern.

Does anyone have any favourite Baroque orchestrators?

Certainly not Baroque, but I would suggest Edvard Grieg's Norwegian Dances and movements from the Peer Gynt Suite, including Ases's Death(All String), The Hall of the Mountain King, and Anitra's Dance. Both of the latter are fully orchestrated.

Also, Antonin Dvorak's New World Symphony.

For baroque, try Vivaldi's Violin Concertos.