Improvisations: a new sub-forum?

[Gijs]

Hello people,

In the light of Nicolas idea of a new commision forum i'd like to bring forth an idea of a new (sub)forum too.

I, myself, are spending quite some time on improvising on the piano. To me it is a way of making music with some benifits compared to composing and some downfalls. But it is a completely stand-alone thing and progress to me.

Consindering this progress i would like to share my improvisations with people who are also interested in this form of (musical)art. In order to get some tips and tops on my submissions and use that for my development.

I feel like i shouldn't post improvisations in the already excisting forums because well it's not an composition. Different standards comply to improvisations in contrast to compositions.

So i would like to suggest a new sub-forum in the "Uplaod your music for analysis and feedback" forum by the name Improvisations.

What do you think?

[punkitititi]

i think it is a nice idea, and people should start again to be able to improvise decent music and not just do some scales and arpeggios and call it improvising... ALL LAME!

so would be good to do such a subforum and experiment and create new things with meanings! so if this is the case, i am in!

[M_is_D]

If you do a piano improvisation, what's wrong with posting it on the piano subforum? If it's a jazz ensemble, what's wrong with posting it in the jazz/pop/etc. subforum? You know what I mean.

[pliorius]

yeah, i would like as well to have a forum 'idiotic non-provisations', it's where non-players could throw some hard-nosed metal ambient piano music

redtube is too stuffed :D

[Max Castillo]

Yes please make one. I often do interesting minimalistic piano improvisations. I should record and post some here. An improvisation forum would be great.

[Gijs]

M is D: I see what you mean. A improvisation could just as well be posted in the sub-forum for the instrumentation it's written for.

The reason why i suggest a new forum for this is because improvisations are usualy not very interesting as a composition. I don't post my improvisations on YC because i feel they are not interesting to be reviewed as an composition. To me improvisation is something different and should be interpretated as an improvisation. I think a improvisation forum would stimulate those who are interested in improvisation to post there pieces and review them accordingly. If there are more members around who feel the same way, particulary about not posting there pieces, a seperate forum for it could be a benefit.

[robinjessome]

...improvisations are usualy not very interesting as a composition....To me improvisation is something different and should be interpretated as an improvisation.

:huh:

Improvisations (in the sense that you guys are talking) ARE compositions, and should be (assuming a certain level of competence) as interesting as anything else.

I don't feel a dedicated improvisations sub-forum is necessary. If you REALLY want somewhere specific, start a journal thread to showcase your improvisational skillz.

[Ferkungamabooboo]

If you do a piano improvisation, what's wrong with posting it on the piano subforum? If it's a jazz ensemble, what's wrong with posting it in the jazz/pop/etc. subforum? You know what I mean.

The only issue with that is the ridiculous preference for scores that the upload forums have.

And then what do you do with something like Ettrick? That's not really jazz in the sense of expectations...

But I agree with you.

[Gijs]

:huh:

Improvisations (in the sense that you guys are talking) ARE compositions, and should be (assuming a certain level of competence) as interesting as anything else.

It might be that we're both talking about something else, but i quess the difference between an improvisation and a composition is that an improvisation is constructed while already playing it. Whereas a composition is contructed in a proces.

I assume i'm not telling you something new. What i want to say is that an improvisation is ment to capture the moment and a composition is constructed to capture what is wants to capture.

I understand all of your "againsts". A new forum for this is not realy nessasary since a improvisation can just as well be placed in the forum it belongs to instrumantally speaking. Moreso since a improvisation might be considered a improvisation.

What i wanted to adress though is that a specific forum can boost a smaller community within YC for those interested in improvisations persee.A threat might do the trick indeed though. At least to start with. Good idea Robin.

[Daniel]

Obviously a score is not required for an improvisation.

[jujimufu]

gijs van beusekom:

So how about compositions including improvisatory elements and/or other indeterminate elements? Would they belong in the Improvisation forums or in the Composition forums?

What if I play you an improvisation by Keith Jarrett, and I tell you it is composed on paper very precisely (while it's all improvised), why should that make any difference on the sonic result that comes out of Keith Jarrett's hands? What if I play a piece by Stockhuasen on the piano and claim it was improvised? (assuming you didn't know either the stockhausen or jarrett pieces)

[Gijs]

Aside from whether or not an improvisation is a composition or not. (I thuoght it to be something completely different, i now understand why you could proclaim there's no difference) The idea behind the use of this improvisations forum is to get people together to discuss improvisation techniques and so.

Maybe a new sub-forum would indeed be to much, seen that some pieces are indeed ambiquous and you could count them under compositions.

I will soon make a threat for it. I think this might consolidate my personal needs to talk about improvising.

[nikolas]

A new lighter forum, without the need of scores would be cool I think. That's the only thing that springs in mind. The rest are up to the choice of the members themselves, and ultimately to the mods who might move a thread if needed.

But it's a cool idea, never the less!

[Guest QcCowboy]

scores aren't required for any of the forum categories.

they are highly recommended for the MW forum, and suggested for ease of study for the other forums, but definitely not "required".

[Ferkungamabooboo]

But how many threads have you seen with only replies of "provide a score and I'll think about replying?"

[Gardener]

None of which the topic was an improvisation ;)

[composerorganist]

I'd agree to a topic (or subforum) on Improvisation IF

a) Improvisations are showcased and a brief explanation of whether you used a melody or harmonic progression as your base or some other method.

b) Improvisation techniques - this is a huge topic as you can apply counterpoint and harmonic knowledge(both from classical and jazz worlds) into exercises. I'd recommend offering improv exercises. For example one of the simplest ones I know is to take a melody such as O Come All Ye Faithful and improv another line that ALWAYS goes in contrary motion to it. To increase the difficulty, impropvise a canon on O COme All Ye Faithful while the baseline always moves in contrary motion to the melody (use say running eighth notes).

[Gijs]

I think a journal threat as Robin mentioned would be a good idea to implement all of your and mine ideas. As soon as i have my recording gear in place i will have a go with it.

[DrumUltimA]

I will admit, I've felt a bit reluctant on posting some of my marimba/vibraphone improvisations, simply because I didn't know where to post them. I'd be in support of such a sub-forum, unless there is a better place to post these.

[James H.]

I'd love to see such a sub forum, coincidentally I just improvised and happened to have recorded something rather interesting for me, but I wouldn't have the guts to put it on a comp work forum, an improv forum... almost certainly, though.

Juji: "So how about compositions including improvisatory elements and/or other indeterminate elements?" You already said it. "How about compositions including..." you already called them compositions. Improvisations are entirely different. A composition may have some improv in it and still be a written composition. So a 16-bar trumpet solo in a jazz standard makes the entire chart push the boundries between comp and improv? I tend to think not. If you put improvisational elements in a work... you still put them there and indicated what to do - it's still thought-out before hand. The performer is just following directions. An improviser makes his own directions, and it becomes an entirely different form of expression to the musician and listener. I think it's a category worthy enough to have it's own discussion forum.

[Ferkungamabooboo]

No, but every modern improvisor doesn't differentiate between improvisation and (instant) composition. The exact same process occurs, simply in real time.

I dunno, I feel an improvisation should be able to stand up as a composition.

And as to the question of improvisation with composed elements, think about the Ornette Coleman album Free Jazz. If precomposed elements make it not improvisation, then that album is not improvisation, which goes against much of the literature on the subject.

[robinjessome]

Careful guys!

We can debate this all day long... There's always going to be saboteurs to any side of this... Is Cobra a composition? Is Butch Morris "improvising"? Is John Cage's bicycle tuned in 4ths? Who knows - certainly not I...well, maybe I do, but I can't tell you.

....

For the matter at hand, I think an improvisationally-geared is redundant and irrelevant. File it under the appropriate ensemble heading, or start your own improv-diary of sorts in the journals section.

:whistling:

[SSC]

Why bother making the distinction between improv and "actual pieces"? Are they both not music composed by a person? That the method of composition is different doesn't really mean much, otherwise we may as well create a sub-forum for "written in the computer" or whatever for each single method.

Another point is that I'm not sure how the argument for "quality" stands here since, again, it means we might as well create a forum for each method of composition we think yields "worse" results, which I don't think is appropriate or even necessary.*

I also don't see the problem with someone doing an improv journal like rob says, where you can poast all the stuff you do, if you don't want to use the other forums. These are all pretty OK solutions, yea.

[James H.]

Improv is a nice activity that could benefit from the extra exposure. Posting in a journal is fine and all that, but not many people are really gonna frequent that. If you post it among the Journals in Off-Topic, they will be blocked for people that have OT disabled. Maybe your improvisations span from piano, to electric keyboard, to guitar, to violin, to whatever else. Where would you post this journal? Under what instrumental category? Chamber? Keyboard? Avant-Garde/Electronic? Vocal (if applicable)?

I just seem to think that not many people really understand the spirit of improvised music. Improvised music has a heart of it's own. Maybe it's comparable to written music, but it certainly does not mean the same to the "composer" as a written work. To me, they are distinct. Improvisations are good the first time. They can be recorded. But it's not fun to try and notate them and play them over - it's just not the same because it's not improv anymore. Written music is INTENDED to be performed more than once.

I'm not going to complain that people think a separate forum is needless, but I just think it would be a neat way to showcase specially produced music and I'm sad that so many people don't understand that improvised music has a life of its own, because it certainly does, no matter what the quality is.

[SSC]

I just seem to think that not many people really understand the spirit of improvised music. Improvised music has a heart of it's own. Maybe it's comparable to written music, but it certainly does not mean the same to the "composer" as a written work. To me, they are distinct. Improvisations are good the first time. They can be recorded. But it's not fun to try and notate them and play them over - it's just not the same because it's not improv anymore. Written music is INTENDED to be performed more than once.

You realize I'm not arguing against you, right? Though, technically, now I would if only to note that it really depends on the composer. Like I said, it's just a different process of composition.

Now I don't see what the big difference is for piece X to be "intended" to be repeated compared to an improv that's also "intended" to be repeated. What does that mean in music anyways? Shaky arguments aside, you can post this stuff I guess in the avant garde forum as my guess is that we can consider modern improvisation a ..modern thing. So, why not.

Or really what's wrong just posting it in whichever instrumental category anyway?

I think that if any decisions are to be taken concerning a new subforum, there should be first enough interest in what the subforum is about that people actually use it if it gets made. The best way to gauge that is to simply green light posting improvs forum-wide and seeing how that goes, IMO. If it's a LOT of people posting them, then it may make sense to make a subforum, but if it's only a couple of people, then it's not necessary.

Pretty simple.