Types of Certain Brass

Could someone explain the difference between a trumpet in B flat, C, D and F (alto in F or a soprano trumpet)? What type of register do these instruments have and what kind of sound do they produce?

And I've just visited Wikipedia's page on Idomeneo, which in the instrumentation list specifies horns in in D, in C, in B flat (alto)/in B (high) and in G. What kind of horns are these? :unsure::blink:

Could someone explain the difference between a trumpet in B flat, C, D and F (alto in F or a soprano trumpet)? What type of register do these instruments have and what kind of sound do they produce?

They are trumpets in various keys. The C trumpet sounds as written, the Bb sounds a major second below written, the D sounds a major second above written, and the F trumpet sounds a perfect fourth above written. The Bb and C trumpets are standard these days, the D is uncommon, and the F is very rare.

And I've just visited Wikipedia's page on Idomeneo, which in the instrumentation list specifies horns in in D, in C, in B flat (alto)/in B (high) and in G. What kind of horns are these? :unsure::blink:

These are all defunct horns. The C horn sounds an octave below written, the D horn sounds are minor seventh below written, the G horn sounds a perfect fourth below written, and the Bb horn sounds a major second below written.

None of these horns exist anymore. The horn in F is all that really remains (it's complicated but mostly true.).

Don't exist anymore? Many horn teachers around here expect you to play stuff that was written for natural horn on a natural horn. And Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn etc. are very often played on natural horns by orchestras. Not every hornist has a natural horn, but most professional ones I know do. (With a complete set of crooks, of course.)

And there are also contemporary pieces specifically written for natural horn.

They are trumpets in various keys. The C trumpet sounds as written, the Bb sounds a major second below written, the D sounds a major second above written, and the F trumpet sounds a perfect fourth above written. The Bb and C trumpets are standard these days, the D is uncommon, and the F is very rare.

OK, I've figured that out. However, what are some differences in tone these trumpets produce? Are C trumpets a bit brighter and more piercing? And are there two types of F trumpets: the one used by some Russian composers and the second one by Viennese composers like Mahler?

And then what about the D trumpet: is Bach trumpet also in D?

These are all defunct horns. The C horn sounds an octave below written, the D horn sounds are minor seventh below written, the G horn sounds a perfect fourth below written, and the Bb horn sounds a major second below written.

None of these horns exist anymore. The horn in F is all that really remains (it's complicated but mostly true.).

And the various tone qualities? Is there a book detailing this?

Yeah, the Bach trumpet is in D. It's actually fairly common in Britain.

Horns are in F (though you can get tenor horns in Eb). However, I think that these are mostly 'double horns', viz., in F *and* Bb. Not 100% sure of this, but that's what I thought -- that a French horn in F (at least some of them) can switch to Bb.

Yeah, the Bach trumpet is in D. It's actually fairly common in Britain.

Horns are in F (though you can get tenor horns in Eb). However, I think that these are mostly 'double horns', viz., in F *and* Bb. Not 100% sure of this, but that's what I thought -- that a French horn in F (at least some of them) can switch to Bb.

I saw your post where you said piccolo trumpet is not in D before you deleted it. :D Anyway... Doesn't Mahler in his seventh call for a tenor horn in B flat? :hmmm:

What's viz.?

Yes, I've *never* heard the D trumpet called a piccolo, only the high Bb/A one, but maybe this isn't the case everywhere.

Horns are in F (though you can get tenor horns in Eb). However, I think that these are mostly 'double horns', viz., in F *and* Bb. Not 100% sure of this, but that's what I thought -- that a French horn in F (at least some of them) can switch to Bb.

That's right, pretty much all hornists play on double horns, and some even triple horns which additionally have a "high F" tuning, which is one octave higher than the normal F horn, particularly for playing high passages. For composers this generally doesn't matter though. Even if a hornist is playing on the Bb horn, it's still transposing as if it was an F horn, the hornist merely uses a different fingering, so to speak.

Generally the hornist decides her- or himself whether to play a certain note or passage on the Bb horn or F horn, and most likely the composer won't even notice :P (There are also quite some cultural differences here. In the US the F horn is used for most things, whereas around this part of Europe most passages are played on the Bb horn, and the F horn is only used for low passages or for single notes to improve their intonation, tone, or fingering.)

So: When you're writing for a modern horn, write in F, regardless of whether it's going to be played on a Bb horn or an F horn, or a mixture of both.

What you are seeing are old parts that were written for natural horns or horns that still required crooks. There are obviously tone differences when you start playing with different lengths of tubing as well as the different wrappings of the tubes. There is no need to write for a horn in a different key other than F, it is just frivolous because it will end up being transposed back into F by the player.

Tenor horns in Eb are completely different and are relics of old marching bands. There are Wagner Tubas that can be in Eb which are basicly french horns in the shape of a euphonium.

Tenor horns in Eb are completely different and are relics of old marching bands.

Wrong.

Tenor horns in Eb (called Eb Alto Horns in the U.S.) are part of the saxhorn family, not the horn family.

Also not a relic. I've edited my previous post to be more clear.

Yes, I've *never* heard the D trumpet called a piccolo, only the high Bb/A one, but maybe this isn't the case everywhere.

Rite of Spring calls the Trumpet in D a piccolo trumpet for some reason.

Because that's how it's called. A piccolo trumpet.

So Mozart's opera would use five different instruments?

Rite of Spring calls the Trumpet in D a piccolo trumpet for some reason.

Stravinski also called the basset horn an "Alto Clarinet in F" for one work.

He wasn't always right. ;)

Famous Composers make mistakes too. Don't always rely on a score for instrument names because sometimes they could completely wrong, or just experimenting with new instruments of the time, i.e. Bach.

"Bass Flute in G"

Haha. :D

"Bass Flute in G"

Haha. :D

That was at a time when the terminology wasn't set up in stone. Don't laugh.

Instead, you could tell me the difference between different types of trumpets. :D

Trumpets that you should know:

Piccolo Trumpet in Bb - An Octave above the Bb Tpt. Used for special effects and baroque playing.

Trumpet in E-flat - A soprano trumpet often used in orchestras and brass bands.

Trumpet in C - Standard orchestral one, very bright sound and very focused

Tumpet in Bb - Standard Band and jazz one, a more mellow tone in the lower register. Used by students almost invariably.

Cornet in Bb - Like a Bb Tpt. but more mellow, often used in bands and British Brass Bands instead of trumpets

Flugelhorn in Bb - Like a Cornet but even more mellow, often with four valves. Sounds like a high trombone.

Some notes:

Piccolo tpt. in Bb can also be in A (same instrument, with extenders -- all players will have them).

Trumpet in Eb is also trumpet in D (same thing).

Trumpet in Bb is the standard in the UK, rather than C.

Trumpets and cornets in Bb technically *can* tune to A, but don't.

And I disagree with Tokke about the Flugel: it sounds more like a horn/cornet than a trombone.

The other cornet is the Eb soprano cornet. Used in brass bands, and occasionally in the orchestra (Havergal's 2nd symphony, for example). It's a saxhorn, and is rather different in tone to the Eb trumpet.

And I disagree with Tokke about the Flugel: it sounds more like a horn/cornet than a trombone.

True. But in Jazz contexts, it sounds like a high soft trombone. Of course it's bore is more common to a horn. I believe it's one step above alto horn, yes?

No, it's a Bb instrument with the same tubing length as a Bb trumpet or cornet.

And I disagree with Daniel on the fluegel... to me it sounds more like a lyrical trombone with valves, less like a cornet, and nothing like a horn sound. The mouthpiece is one of the main determining factors in the sound, and it may be deep for fluegel, but it's not a funnel. This must be a matter of taste and perception, not fact.

*edit* yup, it's essentially the same as per range and fingering as a Bb trumpet or cornet.

Let's also bear in mind that tone colour in brasses differs significantly as one crosses the pond.

Let's also bear in mind that tone colour in brasses differs significantly as one crosses the pond.

Because American orchestras use the piston valve trumpet whereas European orchestras favour the rotary valve version.