Number of string players in the orchestra

When you write an orchestral piece, or want to play a piece which calls for "strings" (an unspecified number of), how do you decide how many players of each string instrument you should use? Any thumb rules etc.?

Depends on the type of orchestra. Typical these days is: 16, 14, 12, 10, 8

Some composers specifiy exactly how many like Strauss who, quite literally, wrote out a different part for each stand.

When it comes to writing for strings, I was told to always make it multiples of two, like Justin said. But your the composer. If you want to write for 123 strings, then do it.:P

Which orchestra? Most orchestra's vary, and it also depends on what kind of music you're talking about. Mozart's time orchestra has fewer strings than Brahms' time, and Ferneyhough was definitely not writing for either orchestra when he was writing his "transit", or when Judith Weir was writing her piano concerto. So, it all boils down to what you want to do and what you want to write for, as well as what is available in terms of players. (Strauss, for example, was famous for settling for whatever was available - when he was commissioned to write "Metamorphosen", he asked the person commissioning him "how many strings have you got?" and they replied "23", so he wrote it for 23 strings.)

orchestral string sections vary, depending on budget, and size of orchestra, as has been noted in this thread already.

GENERALLY, you can count on anywhere from 16 to 24 1st violins, depending on the orchestra.

The 2nd violin section is, generally slightly smaller than the 1st violin section, the violas slightly smaller still, the cellos less and the basses even less.

A group with 16 1st violins might have 13-14 2nd violins, and as few as 8-9 violas, then 6-8 cellos and 3-4 contrabasses. The Montreal Symphony, a large orchestra generally, have up to 9 contrabasses, with the rest of the string group being proportionately larger.

many amateur or community orchestras often have only 10 or so 1st violins, or even less. The group that played one of my pieces a few years ago had 6 1st violins, 5 2nds, 4 violas, 4 cellos, and a single contrabass. So it's not always perfectly balanced.

When you write for a string section, you are, generally, not taking into account the number of individual players. You divide the strings in two, or three or four, but know that if you are writing for a chamber ensemble that divisi in quatro might mean four soloists playing.

If you have the chance of writing for a specific group, make sure to ask how many of each section they have. If you are just writing for yourself (ie: no particular performance group in mind), then be reasonable with the divisis.

Yeah, string sections vary so much on the amateur level that it's almost laughable. My youth orchestra has 8 firsts, 6 seconds, 1 or 2 violas, 3 on a good season if you include adults that come in to assist, 4 celli, one bass. A region area orchestra I played in had 24 firsts, 20 second, 16 viola, 12 or more celli, and 8 basses. We also had 8 horns, 6 trumpet, 6 each flutes, clarinets, oboes, 3 bassoons. We should have been playing Mahler... no, we played Borodin. :dry:

:w00t:

8 horns? In NYC, we can barely get three good ones.

Why the heck didn't you guys play Mahler?!

Taste?

Pity?

We had 12 in the equivalent band festival the week before... and we might have 16 at regions... but I hope not, that's more competition for me to make state band. :veryunsure:

The conductor was gay and from Florida... so of course he wouldn't choose Mahler. :P

We had 12 in the equivalent band festival the week before... and we might have 16 at regions... but I hope not, that's more competition for me to make state band. :veryunsure:

*Orgasms!*

16 Horns?!?!?!?!?!

The conductor was gay and from Florida... so of course he wouldn't choose Mahler. :P

:huh: I don't get it.

:huh: I don't get it.

Mayhap a pot shot at a fellow banned member?

Why can't you get more than 3 horns in NYC?

Yeah, the proportions do vary a lot, especially for amateur orchestras. My orchestra has about 10-12-6-10-5, which is a little awkward (we also have about 5 each of flutes and clarinets, so...well, it works for us). I would expect about 14-12-12-10-8.

Depends on the type of orchestra. Typical these days is: 16, 14, 12, 10, 8

.

Well put! If you write a full orchestra piece, this is a good number to stand behind. I always think of it as this:

Think of the orchestra you would like to play your music (think BIG i.e. NY Phil)

look at their instrumentation, and that's the sound you go for.

Mayhap a pot shot at a fellow banned member?

No, not a specific member. Just Gay Floridian's I've noticed (I've known what... 4 music people from Florida now... ) seen to have similar tastes... and they don't like big German symphonies with rough and tumble horns and stuff. I'd like to have a German conductor sometime. :dry:

When you write for a string section, you are, generally, not taking into account the number of individual players. You divide the strings in two, or three or four, but know that if you are writing for a chamber ensemble that divisi in quatro might mean four soloists playing.

Heh, reminds me of my last orchestral piece. I had three violas and two double basses, and there were solo parts for each, sometimes alongside the rest of the register playing "tutti". So there would be one solo viola, two tutti violas, a solo double bass and "one tutti double bass" (or should I say "tutto"?). It wasn't quite the effect I had intended.

Think of the orchestra you would like to play your music (think BIG i.e. NY Phil)

look at their instrumentation' date=' and that's the sound you go for.[/quote']

I, for one, would love to write a piece that incorporates 500 tamtams. Am I thinking BIG enough?

Realistically though, most composers rarely compose for their "ultimate wishlist of instrumentation". (Not saying you can't do it though, if you wish.)

About how many strings would an orchestra have say, in Mozart's time?

Less. It really depends. Lully's orchestra had 24 people, which was large for the time. Partly because of the Mannheim school, orchestras grew during the classical period, so...I don't know...8-8-6-4-2 looks about right, maybe a little off.

In the baroque and early classic, orchestra sizes were far from standardised anyways. Sometimes they just consisted of "as many as one could get for a performance". Especially in early baroque music, in which the basso continuo was often played by a wide range of instruments that weren't actually indicated by the composer, but just assembled during a performance by availability.

Orchestra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow... That is interesting! The Late Romantic Orchestra had more strings than a Modern Orchestra...

Why did we cut back on the strings? :huh:

World War II.

The majority of the European orchestras were heavily depleted after the war and many musicians fled to America. So they're physically were not enough players in Europe to keep the string count up.

What could be the Strings Players in an Opera ?, because I've seen very reduced strings section on that (something like 8 vlnI, 7 vlnII, 5vla, 4vc, 3cb)

Some Operas uses small woodwind and brass sections too and there's no problem but, when rest of the orchestra just normal, that kind of string section is not a balance problem ?

What could be the Strings Players in an Opera ?, because I've seen very reduced strings section on that (something like 8 vlnI, 7 vlnII, 5vla, 4vc, 3cb)

Some Operas uses small woodwind and brass sections too and there's no problem but, when rest of the orchestra just normal, that kind of string section is not a balance problem ?

In a Grand Opera, I wouldn't expect there to be any reduction in strings. If there is, by no more than one or two stands. As far as smaller operas, I'm not sure. As for Broadway and Operettas, there's usually a reduced string section, probably half of the normal. Though I've seen scores with Violas omitted, with only 4 violins and 2 cellos, with a string quintet or dectet. Ask someone with more hands-on knowledge about this one.

Looks like a balance issue, perhaps coupled with the lower availability of musicians playing larger string instruments? I'm more curious as to the reasoning behind 2 harps.

We also cut back on woodwinds and brass. I think music was just at that point where no one really realized that "more" could mean anything detrimental to the sound of the orchestra.

I'm curious as to how the expansion in woodwind and brass sections worked in common practice. That is, when Beethoven's symphonies were being performed after his death, would the orchestras have been reduced accordingly?

I'm trying to imagine writing for an orchestra and putting to use 4 of each instrument in the woodwind section, 8 horns, 4 trumpets.... was having them all play in unison just the norm, or did composers just become accustomed to always writing split parts for entire woodwind sections, or did a significant portion of the winds and just end up sitting there a lot of the time?

I've seen Gergiev conducting Prokofiev operas, the pit (I don't know if what i saw is the Kirov or other theater) but the pit is really small, and the orchestra is very reduced in the strings section but the rest of the orchestra is normal even larger, and it sounds just fine Maybe a very good conductor can balance the performance even with few strings (asking them to play louder.... if brass and strings should play in p ,perhaps the strings can play in mf and the brass in p to balance the sound.