How do you begin orchestration?

I am a new composer, and every time i try to start writing a piece for the orchestra, i don't know where to begin (specifically which instruments to start with)

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Micah Pianoforte

I suggest getting a book/teacher, starting small (no need to write like Mahler), and remember there is not such thing as "failure", only a greater opprotunity for learning.

:thumbsup:

Okay. Hmm. First of all, there's a significant difference between "orchestration" and "writing for orchestra." Orchestration is taking any previously written work and rewriting it, in a sense for a different ensemble, generally a larger one. Say, for instance, orchestra.

As far as writing for orchestra goes... there's no one way to do it. Everyone does it differently, and it pays to know your compositional style. As you're a new composer, I highly recommend that you don't start off writing for orchestra. I've been composing for four years and I still can't write for orchestra. It's incredibly difficult, and if you don't know what you're doing you're liable to tear your hair out. You've got to build the skills and techniques you'll use, and get comfortable with your own composition process, before you can write for bigger ensembles. I'd suggest starting small--write for piano or another solo instrument, maybe a duet or three voices. Basically, do whatever the mood strikes you too as long as it's smallish. Don't bite off more than you can chew, or you may find yourself getting frustrated with composition and walking off entirely. Just like you wouldn't start a first grader with writing dissertations, you're building a skill and you need to develop it. Good luck!

Orchestration is taking any previously written work and rewriting it, in a sense for a different ensemble, generally a larger one.

Orchestration is also the study of how to treat the instruments in an orchestra when writing for one.

Here a few tips:

1. Start small. Chamber orchestras work well. Writing for the types of orchestras Mahler used (or those like Varese's in Ameriques) can be overwhelming!

2. Stay well within the ranges for instruments most of the time.

3. Treat the strings equally.

4. For woodwinds, two of them will not sound twice as loud as one. If you double two different woodwinds, their timbres often change in unexpected ways.

5. Horns are not soprano instruments.

6. Don't forget about percussion!

I'd suggest starting small..

:thumbsup:

Great advice. I would spend a LOT OF TIME in small forms and orchestrations before trying anything bigger.

When you write for orchestra, there are two ways to go. some composers work from the full score, ensuring that every line written is fully idiomatic. Most composers, however, write from short score, writing in 3-7 parts and orchestrating later.

Almost forgot!!!

Read the masterclasses we have here! They are very, very, very, very, very helpful

maianess: there's a significant difference between "orchestration" and "writing for orchestra." Orchestration is taking any previously written work and rewriting it,

I do agree in some how with this, ... there are different kinds of methods to compose for orchestra.

...most people starts getting the main idea of the work playing in the piano,

- some of them write a "Piano Score" with little marks (indicating this line is the Oboe, this is the Trumpet etc...)... but they are thinking in the Orchestra from the very begining, it's just a shorter way to write the idea (to avoid loosing it)...

- others does not think in the orchestra yet, just write a piano piece, later, they begin to think what part are they going to assign to what instrument...that's "Orchestrate" a piece. (mmmm not a very good idea I think)

- others get the main idea in the piano too but they don't creat any piano score, they write directly in the big sheet paper, (or in Computer like Sibelius, Finale etc)

I think that's when you have in your mind a very clear and definied sound of your work.

I may not recommend that if you don't feel very much capable of knowing what is going to do every single player...(but try this: if you use computer, you may write directly in the full score and play it, ...you hear it, and you can edit the content very easily until you find what you're looking for, that could help)

In my personal way to write, I never creat a piano score first and then the full orchestra score, I write directly in the big Sibelius file.

Writing a piano piece and let that orchestration to later on, may no be very much recommendable, because you're not even thinking in the real essence, or what instruments are going to play, how it will sound...

...I Think the best way for you (in my personal opinion) is to create the piano score with those marks (maybe use a 3th or 4th staff if necessary) but Imagine how the orchestra is going to play that you're playing in the piano, later you may creat the full score with less difficulty...

I hope that help you...Good Luck

This may not be helpful to you, but I feel I should point out my own experience here just to show you that the whole "start small" approach isn't always the one to take. When I started composing, I knew I wanted to write for the orchestra one day. So I did.

That was it, I didn't start small and work my way up, I just started writing really scrafty stuff for full orchestra, figuring out what I had done wrong (oh, you mean they have to breathe! What, flutes too?! etc.) and then over a relatively short amount of time, I was writing half decent stuff for the full orchestra. Then I started writing for smaller ensembles to fine-tune my understanding of the characteristics of each section, it's strengths weaknesses, uses, etc. After that, when I put the sections back together, I wasn't intimidated by the prospect of WRITING FOR FULL ORCHESTRA — I'd already done that — now I was just doing it again with a better understanding of what the hell I was up to.

Only after all that did I get some orchestration textbooks and continue fine-tuning and gaining a further understanding of the orchestra in terms of individual instruments and combinations that transcend the simple sections. At this point, I'm comfortably exploring unusual combinations, tossing in synth elements, rock elements, and so on to further expand the palette and see what kinds of sounds I can produce given all the instruments at my disposal — it's very exciting.

My base point though is that you don't necessarily have to start small to become proficient at large ensemble writing. It seems to me, from what I've seen on here, that starting small is the way that helps most people and the way that everyone seems to find most intuitive, but I give you my own situation so that you see that it's not necessarily an inescapable truth — if you want to start writing for full orchestra, I say jump in, get dirty, then rinse and repeat until you figure it all out!

And you're in the perfect place for that, because everyone on here will be more than happy to critique the work and help you understand what needs tweaking and what you managed to get spot-on, by fluke or by design.

Good luck! :thumbsup:

Marius: if you want to start writing for full orchestra, I say jump in, get dirty, then rinse and repeat until you figure it all out!

Yes, yes, That's the kind of spirit I was looking for on this site and talking about in other thread...

My suggetion of writing small score with little marks, could be helpful, but you can also start directly to the big show-time, I did than, I failed the first two times, (called of those projects) but then I got a good work...

I tend to agree with Marius's method. Although I'm not an expert myself, it seems the best way to learn to write for full orchestra is to practice writing for full orchestra.

It's funny how things keep coming back to that same term.

The problem is, most people don't have much chance to hear their work brought to life by an actual orchestra, so this practicing of orchestration will be almost entirely score-based. The lack of opportunity to hear their efforts in sound will probably hinder development somewhat. Sampling is an option, I guess, but it would take a huge amount of work to come even close to a realistic representation.

there IS a difference between

I've been studying piano and theory for 15 years' date=' but only writing for a few years, I'd LIKE to compose for orchestra[/quote']

and

I've never written a note in my life and can barely read music' date=' and have no basic knowledge about harmony or counterpoint, but I'd like to write symphonies[/quote']

The former has a chance at "just jumping in".

The latter is asking for trouble.

If you fall into the 1st category, then jumping in, a bit of trial and error, and the addition of some "on the side" help might work.

If you fall into the 2nd category, then you will find yourself posting threads with "I have this theme I'd like to write a symphony with, but I don't know where to start".

It's like wanting to write a novel but never having held a pencil in your life.

That's where PC's come in handy. Nobody writes things anymore.