madyasho Posted February 27, 2009 Posted February 27, 2009 Hello everyone! I'm a beginner composer and music enthusiastic which would like to share thought and opinions with forum members. My questions is about occasional chromatic chord usage in music: I saw that in "Raindrops Keep Falling' On My Head" score composer used F7 and D7 chords which do not belong to diatonic scale. Why do composers sometimes build chords out of key signature? For instance, if he had used Fmaj7 instead of F7 all the key would have sounded "belong to" F major scale but that extra E-flat sort of "ruins" it. What extra feeling does it bring to the piece of music? Why do you think he preferred F7 instead of Fmaj7? Thanks in advance. Quote
violinfiddler Posted February 27, 2009 Posted February 27, 2009 If I understand your example...it's called a secondary dominant. It's chromatic to the scale but at the same time pointing towards a diatonic chord. Quote
James H. Posted February 28, 2009 Posted February 28, 2009 Most of the time in pop music et cetera they are using 7 chords and sometime suspended chords just for their "colour" instead of any diatonic (or even chromatic) function. Thus, you might see a lot Gm7 chords in jazz that don't lead straight into a nice hearty C chord, maybe it goes to C#M7 next, the sevenths are just added for colour, and not as much function as it would in say, Mozart's or Mahler's music. █▓▒░Post 1980 - Philip Glass composes the opera, Satyagraha░▒▓█One random fact per post for your enjoyment! Quote
SSC Posted February 28, 2009 Posted February 28, 2009 Chord progressions not dependent on harmonic functions. Typical stuff really. :> Quote
MattGSX Posted February 28, 2009 Posted February 28, 2009 to be honest, I'd actually be a little disappointed if the music never strayed from the diatonic scale. That would be a really boring piece. Try playing a chord progression on a keyboard. First, try C maj, d min, F Maj, G Maj, C maj. Second, try C maj, C Dominant, F Maj, G Dominant, C Maj. Notice how much more colorful this one is through the addition of the Bb. These secondary functions and ways to enrich harmony are absolutely necessary to function as a composer. If you just wrote music that never strayed from your diatonic scale, it would get very boring, very quickly. Secondary harmonies add color and excitement. Quote
JonSlaughter Posted February 28, 2009 Posted February 28, 2009 There are many relationships between chords. Diatonic provide a certain color and smoothness. THis may not be what one wants. Same quality chords a maj3rd apart is not diatonic but is common. It can be a nice effect. Note that they are all still related. (all the chords in western 12-tone music are related) You shouldn't get upset when you see "non-diatonic" chords together. C F G D7 Em is not in one "key" but each chord perfectly relates to each other(and very closely to the whole). C Dm Ab7 G7 Am D7 F7 Bbm D7 G similarly has a relationship between all. The D7 F7 here is simply a maj3rd relationship. It is not diatonic but both contain the A and C note which is like a bond between them. In fact D7 and F7 are more related than C and Dm!!!! Ok, that isn't entirely true because the implications of Dm and that of C are close. Basically a difference of Bb and B(the 7th in the key of C) But D7 implies the key of G and F7 the key of Bb. This is a much larger leap than that of Dm and C which are the keys of F and C which are closer. But none the less they are related. But your question doesn't give context!!!!!!! C D7 G Am Dm F7 Bb Dm G7 C Which in this case the function is the same D7 to G is the same as F7 to Bb. You think it's not diatonic but it is... it is simply changing the tonic. (a constant tonic for a large piece can get quite boring) In fact most good music "change" the tonic. It's called modulation or tonicization. In the above the keys of G and Bb are tonicized. Now, one doesn't have to tonicize or modulate to use "non-diatonic" chords(but they are diatonic to the current tonic). Instead we can "borrow" chords or use substitution. This has the effect of creating interest through diversity. A simple progression C F G C is so common that it can be boring. There is nothing that jumps out at you. BUT!!! C F Ab G C or C Fm G C jumps out at you. Both chords are diatonic in some sense but the quality and mode has changed. We are borrowing from Cmin which is very close to Cmaj. (in fact it is closer to Cmaj than Amin is... ok, again, this is not true). Now your original question was, why not Fmaj7 instead of F7? Well, that depends on context. C7 Fmaj7 G7 is not that great compared to C7 F7 G7. The maj7 sticks out like a sore thumb. It's function is unclear. How does it relate to G7? Well, we could be in the key of C but the C7 then is odd. It's not the Fmaj7's fault but the C7 to Fmaj7. In fact this is a tonicization of the key of F(although the tonic is rarely a maj7th chord in cpp). But then the G7 should be Gmin. The progression actually might be ok if we knew what happaned after: C7 Fmaj7 G7 Cmaj7 D7 Gmaj7 is just the pattern V7 Imaj7 repeated and would be perfect ok as we see the context. C7 Fmaj7 G7 Am could be ok. C7 Fmaj7 G7 Fmaj7 would be a bit funky but again might work just fine depending on the larger context. Realize any chord and be juxtaposed to any other chord and sound decent. You might ask: Why this chord and not that chord? In fact I had a similar experience once where I asked why Beethoven used a Secondary dominant instead of the diatonic chord(something like D7 verses Dm). I tried playing the piece with both chords. Guess what? They both works just fine!! His chord worked better though. Why? Well, because he is the master! There is more going on than just the harmony but also the implications he setup along with many other factors. Also the chord that followed had the F# resolve to G. This created a leading tone effect and a tonicization of G(it was a half cadence). It was more emphatic than the Dm. Why it sounds better to me I don't know. But it is music after all. Think of it more as stylistic than anything else. Think of it this way. A composer as a huge number of chords to choose from that will work. In fact all chords can work but many won't because of the context. If he played Fmaj7 the M7th might have some conflict with the melody tone before where he flattened it. i.e., the melody before might use Eb and he didn't like the cross relation that Fmaj7 would create. Changing one key one in the melody could destroy it and so he changed the harmony. But he most likely could have used Adim7 or D9 in it's place too. All these are closely related chords. It possibly could have used a number of other chords too. Depends on on the whole context and his own style. Basically no need to worry about it too much. The best thing you can do if you really want to is play the piece and use the other chord. THen you'll probably see very quickly why he didn't use it. If it does work then maybe he just didn't even think about it. After all, he probably just played what he heard in his head and hence that was the chord to use. Doesn't mean there are not other possibilities that might even work better. Quote
madyasho Posted February 28, 2009 Author Posted February 28, 2009 >But your question doesn't give context!!!!!!! sorry about that :) Here how "Raindrops..." chord progression follows: (It's F-major) F Fmaj7 F7 Bb Am7 D7 D9 Am7 D7 Gm7 C7sus C F Fmaj7 F7 Bb Am7 D7 D9 Am7 D7 Gm7 C7sus C F Fmaj7 Bb C Am7 D9 Gm7 Gm7 C7sus C C7sus C F Fmaj7 F7 Bb Am7 D7 D9 Am7 D7 Gm7 C7sus C F Fmaj7 Gm7 C7sus F ..and thank you all for these invaluable comments Quote
robinjessome Posted February 28, 2009 Posted February 28, 2009 Is your leadsheet from the "Real Little Best Fake Book Ever" Just curious, because the durations of those changes are important too. ;) ---------------------------------------------------------- F7 is part of a Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony: F Fmaj7 F7 Bb... & The D7 about which you're so concerned is (as Vfiddler pointed out, a "secondary dominant" as you classical kids like to call it). It's just part of a ii-V into the Gmin7. All VERY tonal and logical, just not diatonic. Quote
madyasho Posted February 28, 2009 Author Posted February 28, 2009 The book is "How To Play Popular Piano in 10 Easy Lessons" by Norman Monath. Page 83. Quote
robinjessome Posted March 1, 2009 Posted March 1, 2009 The book is "How To Play Popular Piano in 10 Easy Lessons" by Norman Monath. Page 83. I see. His changes are solid enough...as is my explanation of the ones that scared you. Diatonic is but one room in your musical house....time to explore, my friend. Quote
violinfiddler Posted March 1, 2009 Posted March 1, 2009 Diatonic is but one room in your musical house....time to explore, my friend. Heck yeah! Quote
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