Odd time phrasing, how does it really sound?

I just started thinking if there is any music which moves everyone, and I think there are, but of course not every 'good' music touches everyone.

Like for instance Ennio Morricone could be someone who is respected by proficient ears, and those who are not familiar with music at all, or heavy metal musicians as well. (Metallica had an intro by him on the concert). Or Chopin could be another composer who is so easy to love for everyone, but not Bartok, who wrote excellent music but not easy listening. Bach also can be someone who might be not understood by everyone, but thinking of the Gounod version of his work Ave Maria is again a beautiful music and no kid would doubt is.

Well, I am undergoing my training, but believe me, I don't think it will change my view on things in life and music, at least it hasn't in the last 2 and a half years.

I don't have your experience and I believe you know about music much more then me (currently) and I respect that and your age, but I don't think that your mind is in the right place concerning this here given subject.

I do believe that it is possible to write a piece of music that everyone (and by everyone I mean intelligent forms of life that consider music something to be enjoyed outside of nightclubs) will like.

Edit: As for your remark about artistic prostitution, I suggest you read some books on 13-18 century Japan.

Miyamoto Musashi is a good place to start.

Good point. But you rarely hear someone say something bad about Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca, or Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata... And that music is accessible to large amount of listeners.

I say many bad things about both.

is this thread still about time signatures ??? or writing a piece everyone will love..?

(today I was prepared to receive good opinions and attacks also, about my last post ...... It seems no one read it, they just keep arguing)

Let me tell you something.....

Write music for yourselves, for your girlfriend, for your wife, for your son, for your best friend.....never for the critics.

I just started thinking if there is any music which moves everyone, and I think there are, but of course not every 'good' music touches everyone.

Like for instance Ennio Morricone could be someone who is respected by proficient ears, and those who are not familiar with music at all, or heavy metal musicians as well. (Metallica had an intro by him on the concert). Or Chopin could be another composer who is so easy to love for everyone, but not Bartok, who wrote excellent music but not easy listening. Bach also can be someone who might be not understood by everyone, but thinking of the Gounod version of his work Ave Maria is again a beautiful music and no kid would doubt is.

Exactly what I was trying to point out.

I began to think professional musicians around here sold their souls for knowledge... hah. Good job Boglary.

Exactly what I was trying to point out.

I began to think professional musicians around here sold their souls for knowledge... hah. Good job Boglary.

Again with the borderline offensive comments...

Exactly what I was trying to point out.

I began to think professional musicians around here sold their souls for knowledge...

Yah...what are you trying to say? I think, if you paid more attention, that you'll find that the majority of serious professionals will have a FAR greater understanding and appreciation for a MUCH wider array of musics than you're giving us credit for.

Yah...what are you trying to say? I think, if you paid more attention, that you'll find that the majority of serious professionals will have a FAR greater understanding and appreciation for a MUCH wider array of musics than you're giving us credit for.

Ehm... ok... good for you all... I know lots of professionals personally... and most of them said that music became just a job... after some 30 years of doing it... no more pleasure... I'm glad if you're different. I sure hope something like that will never happen to me.

Ehm... ok... good for you all... I know lots of professionals personally... and most of them said that music became just a job... after some 30 years of doing it... no more pleasure... I'm glad if you're different. I sure hope something like that will never happen to me.

wow, very sad.

but then, you're 21... how many professionals in different fields of music can you really know?

I guess I'm lucky then to not know a single person like you describe.

University professors, symphony musicians, chamber specialists, accompanists, opera singers... all of them as impassioned now as they were 20, 30, or more years ago.

And most of them enjoy all sorts of music.

As for myself, my tastes happen to cut a rather wide swath of styles of music, from some pop stuff and jazz, to Broadway, to over 400 years of classical, and film scores.

And yet, there are STILL people who come to this forum and call me an ivory tower academic.

tsk tsk tsk. really, shame on you.

wow, very sad.

but then, you're 21... how many professionals in different fields of music can you really know?

I guess I'm lucky then to not know a single person like you describe.

University professors, symphony musicians, chamber specialists, accompanists, opera singers... all of them as impassioned now as they were 20, 30, or more years ago.

And most of them enjoy all sorts of music.

As for myself, my tastes happen to cut a rather wide swath of styles of music, from some pop stuff and jazz, to Broadway, to over 400 years of classical, and film scores.

And yet, there are STILL people who come to this forum and call me an ivory tower academic.

tsk tsk tsk. really, shame on you.

Well, I don't know any musicians of the type you mentioned, I mostly know pop-rock studio session musicians, or instrumentalists that make their living by playing in club bands, working as studio techs etc... (why that makes me feel less important now I wonder...?)

Looks like you never found yourself on the hard side of music bussines eh?

Can it be that I have some experience that you don't? :D

I noticed you haven't mentioned rock. You missed a big chunk of music history there...

...So, the people you mention - who, over time became jaded and dissatisfied with music - work primarily in overly commercial and pandering styles? :whistling:

;)

...So, the people you mention - who, over time became jaded and dissatisfied with music - work primarily in overly commercial and pandering styles? :whistling:

;)

Some... some don't. Some do ethnic, some do jazz (questionably commercial)...

Well, I don't know any musicians of the type you mentioned, I mostly know pop-rock studio session musicians, or instrumentalists that make their living by playing in club bands, working as studio techs etc... (why that makes me feel less important now I wonder...?)

Looks like you never found yourself on the hard side of music bussines eh?

Can it be that I have some experience that you don't? :D

I noticed you haven't mentioned rock. You missed a big chunk of music history there...

As Robin says, you seem to know ONE kind of musician: people who work in commercial music.

And I HAVE done a bit of that, I have no interest in it however.

And Rock is... a TINY chunk of music history.

As for finding myself on the "hard side" of the music business, please. I have been a professional musician longer than you've been alive. I've been, and still am an administrator in the music business, first with a school, and now with a festival.

And I have been living as a composer for a long time as well. (if you want "hard", try that for a living).

I have no lessons to learn from you.

But apparently, you know all there is to know about the music business, so I will wish you luck and leave it at that.

And Rock is... a TINY chunk of music history.

Pardon me, I meant modern music history. But what I really wanted to know is where does you opinion stand about rock music...

But apparently, you know all there is to know about the music business, so I will wish you luck and leave it at that.

As for finding myself on the "hard side" of the music business, please. I have been a professional musician longer than you've been alive.

Touche.

Ehm... ok... good for you all... I know lots of professionals personally... and most of them said that music became just a job... after some 30 years of doing it... no more pleasure... I'm glad if you're different. I sure hope something like that will never happen to me.

Yeah, well... most professionals in any field tend to fall into that trap.

Then again, "most" is not "all". And those guys who do have this sad attitude towards music, would never post on our forums anyway. It would be... ehm... "below their dignity" to hang out with guys like us.

So really, I don't get the point of this "fight". We are all on the same side, are we not?

As for the idea of "writing music everyone would like", good luck. I don't think it is possible, but hey - people also thought that landing on the moon is impossible, and the best dreams are "impossible" ones.

Let me tell you something.....

Write music for yourselves, for your girlfriend, for your wife, for your son, for your best friend.....never for the critics.

Very true.

The last people you should write music for, are the critics. The critics are not your audience. In fact, these guys are the only people in the entire world who won't be able to experience your music as your audience does, because their job forces them to analyze and judge it.

Well, I was a fan of DT for some time, but then I kind of realized that music is supposed to sound good to everyone, and most people get lost in odd time.

It all depends how you do it. If you have a good and natural reason to use odd time, most people won't even notice it.

I can give you two examples from my own music. In one of my sonatas, the entire Scherzo is in 5/4 time. When playing it in front of my family, nobody went "hey... this is written in an odd time signature. That's blasphemy! So let's stone the guy with rotten tomatos". They didn't even notice. Why? because the music flowed naturally. The 5/4 meter wasn't thrown in to "make things interesting". It was the soul of the music itself.

The second example I have for you is even more striking. The slow movement of the same sonata. It was written in 2/4 time, but one bar is in 3/4 time. In this case, the flow was so smooth that even I didn't notice the change of meter until I sat down and wrote the music on paper.

So you see, it isn't true that people get lost in odd time. What is true, is that "making things interesting" tends to confuse people. Mind you, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Indeed, that's the whole point of making things interesting in the first place. :)

I think don't even write for girlfriend, wife, son etc., maybe they can be inspirational people. Just write because the melody want to explode and you can't hold them back. All the beautiful music in earth was born because they had to be born. They weren't planned creatures. If you have the inspiration just write because it makes us happy, and if it means something even only for one human being in the earth it worth it!

is this thread still about time signatures ??? or writing a piece everyone will love..?

(today I was prepared to receive good opinions and attacks also, about my last post ...... It seems no one read it, they just keep arguing)

Let me tell you something.....

Write music for yourselves, for your girlfriend, for your wife, for your son, for your best friend.....never for the critics.

Very true.

The last people you should write music for, are the critics. The critics are not your audience. In fact, these guys are the only people in the entire world who won't be able to experience your music as your audience does, because their job forces them to analyze and judge it.

Ah, come on, critics are humans too, and every human is to some part a critic. Every person "analyses" to some degree (i.e. taking the music apart, hearing patterns, comparing), just that many non-musicians do it more unconsciously than people with a musical background. And most people definitely judge, and often actually much quicker and more partially than a professional, considerate critic.

The audience are critics and critics are an audience, and sometimes a much more favourable and open-minded one than their reputation leads many to assume (even if of course not always). I don't really know where this prejudice that critics are some sort of robots comes from.

Yes the critics have their importance too, but what I was trying to say is that a composer mustn't be thinking "what the critics would say ?" while writing his work, being always worried about thier opinion "am I going to satisfy their expectations"... I think that is not a good behavior...(Unless the critic is how hired you to write that piece and the payment is depending on that) but for normal circumstances the composer must follow his own judgment, not the "others".

I note that many so-called "Critics" seem to "know" very much about music and they consicer themselves "experts" in that field but....If they "know" so much about composing....why do they not compose their own works and leave in peace other people works ?...

I'm sure some of them are not able to write a 10 seconds "Amen"

I think only a Composer have the true right on critic other Composer work

Yes the critics have their importance too, but what I was trying to say is that a composer mustn't be thinking "what the critics would say ?" while writing his work, being always worried about thier opinion "am I going to satisfy their expectations"... I think that is not a good behavior...(Unless the critic is how hired you to write that piece and the payment is depending on that) but for normal circumstances the composer must follow his own judgment, not the "others".

Agreed, but I don't see what this has to do with critics. You don't need to satisfy anybody's expectations.

I note that many so-called "Critics" seem to "know" very much about music and they consicer themselves "experts" in that field but....If they "know" so much about composing....why do they not compose their own works and leave in peace other people works ?...

1. Some critics are indeed composers themselves. Actually quite many of them (To name some well-known ones: Schumann, Berlioz, Debussy).

2. Not everybody who knows much about a thing must actually create that thing himself. There are researchers, teachers, consultants, theorists etc. who all know a lot about certain things, but choose to approach them from a different angle than the people who "create" them. And they all are rather important.

3. You sound like critics are somehow out to "put stuff down" with pleasure. Did you ever consider their role as mediators, which may bring people to your music that wouldn't even know of it otherwise? Or their role as people who (unlike many others concertgoers who just tell the composer how much they loved it) try to give a honest, discerning, and well-founded perspective on your music, which may actually let you discover aspects of your music that you didn't even consciously realize yourself?

Do you realize that they may have a major function this whole forum has too: to give you feedback that might help you develop new aspects of your music? I really don't know why so many people have this completely negative view on music critics that just "won't leave people's works in peace".

(Btw.: Personally I don't want my works to be "left in peace". You only get that when either nobody cares about your music, or nobody dares to voice an opinion on it.)

I'm sure some of them are not able to write a 10 seconds "Amen"

I think only a Composer have the true right on critic other Composer work

That is almost equivalent to saying "only a composer can understand anything about music". Do you really think that?

All that you (Gardener) said is right, maybe we kind of disagree because you know quite qualified critics and I only know "charlatans", I don't denied the existence of "good" critics, it's just I have never seen one.....forgive my rudeness about them, you live in Europe (i Think)....i Live in Mexico....you see the difference ???

What I want to know is if we may come back to the 7/8 discussion, talking about critics is not very illustrative.

Ah, come on, critics are humans too, and every human is to some part a critic. Every person "analyses" to some degree (i.e. taking the music apart, hearing patterns, comparing), just that many non-musicians do it more unconsciously than people with a musical background.

I'm not talking about musicians vs. non-musicians. To be honest, I prefer feedback from musicians, because they can express there opinions in precise technical terms.

And I'm sure critics can be very fine people and very astute musicians. But when they wear the critic hat, they are obliged to forget all about being human and listening to music for pleasure and all that rubbish. They must be profesional.

And you know what? I'm not even complaining about it. The world needs professonal critics. I'm just saying that as a composer, I should be thinking of the people who'll want to enjoy my music, and not for those who get payed to review it.

The audience are critics and critics are an audience, and sometimes a much more favourable and open-minded one than their reputation leads many to assume (even if of course not always).

True. But you see, this isn't about me wanting to get praise at all costs. If the critics love my music and the general audience hates it, then my music failed to communicate the message I tried to convey.

What I want to know is if we may come back to the 7/8 discussion, talking about critics is not very illustrative.

Yes, I agree.

So back to the discussion on "odd time" and whether it is too much for "normal people" to handle :D

Phantom, do you know the Jazz Piece called "Take Five"? Written in 5/4, and

most people have no trouble swallowing it (except those who hate jazz, and for them the odd meter is the least of their problems with that piece)

And how about the theme of the film "Mission Impossible"? Also written in 5/4(at least part of it is. I think there is a transition to 4/4 somewhere in there, but part of it is definitely written in 5/4)

There are even examples in 19th century music of odd time. The most famous, no doubt, is the second movement of Tchykovsy's (sp?) "Pathetique" Symphony, which was described by one of the critics as "a waltz for the legged people" ( see? that's why we need critics! for these priceless poetic descriptions! :D )

An even earlier example, though less known, occurs in Chopin's 1st Sonata, Opus 4. I admit I've never heard it performed, but the Larghetto is written in 5/4. And here we are speaking of piece written in the 1820's!

So I don't think odd time, by itself, is that hard to swallow. People hear it all the time, in the concert hall, in the movies, and on TV, without even noticing it.

To reiterate what I said before: if you HEAR it, write it. If it FLOWS, no one will notice. If it's ragged and forced, it'll sound as such...

If it groooooves, you're golden.

Pink Floyd - Money

^^^

SEE!!

Jazz Piece called "Take Five"? Written in 5/4, and

most people have no trouble swallowing it

And how about the theme of the film "Mission Impossible"? Also written in 5/4(at least part of it itself, is)

Uuu yes, excellent examples, they are quiet easy to follow, and very enjoyable too, but look there is a very impornat matter: the Accents.

.....can be easy if you divide the accents in natural ways...

Both example have the accents quite clear in the beat. "Take Five" commonly starts with the drums establishing the rhythm from the very beginning

"Mission Impossible" has the accents so clear and that involves you into the beat immediately.

probably a Langsam or and Adagio for Strings wouldn't be very suitable for 5/4 7/4 etc...