4'33"

:O

....

LOL!!!

Yes, of course. Everyone has the exact same understanding of music and if they can not accomodate YOUR tastes in music then obviously they must be an IDIOT. Nevermind that you could truly be actually MISSING something or that perhaps some people actually ENJOY types of music that you don't. Clearly, if you do not understand something then it is simply crap and everyone else is just PRETENDING to like it to act SUPERIROR. Also, disregarding the fact that NO ONE in this thread pretended to be superior until trolls started being trolls. No flaws at all in that (what can dubiously be called) "logic".

I can't even claim to be doing a strawman here. That's seriously just what you loving said. I'd make some sort of comment about you being an idiot or that you should stop posting altogether but... honestly, keep it up. This is better than your other thread. "OH NOES! I R FAILED TEH MATHZ!!!"

So, in summation: LOL!!!

So, how bout this Mr. Superior musical genius. Since your such a master of music, how bout you write a great piece of music from a genre I like? You will sit here(not necessarily you specifically) and lecture me about what is music and what is not and claim you have some special gift from god to determine what is music then surely you can write a piece that I will think is good?

Problem with people like you is that instead of accepting your ignorance you create a new structure where you are a genius. Instead of playing by the rules that others have created you run off crying and decide that you'll make up your own game and change the rules so that you get to decide who is special and who is not.

If you want to call 4'33" music or noise music whatever... that's fine, but don't try pretend that you understand music. You might understand silence and noise... again, that's fine. You can even call it music if you want... I can't force you to be reasonable and use useful definitions. If you want to call a cow a dog just because you don't want to be a "conformist" then so be it.

Don't expect everyone to play your little stupid games(yes, in my system your game is stupid). Are you going to cry because I don't wanna play your stupid game?

I would say "Go write some music"... but obviously you can't. Opps, I guess you can, you've wrote a million pieces already. You must be a master composer of silence!!!

Why don't you take a scraggy, record it, and call that music!! I'm sure 100 years from now someone will enjoy that and will be debating it's intellectual and emotional ramifications.

The funny thing is, you seriously think 4'33" is something magical. What it shows is your ignorance. You had to have cage put it in a context so your little brain could understand it. You hear 4'33"'s all over the place, when you ride the bus, when you go to the mall, when your in your car...

What you don't understand is that cage was making fun of people like you. He knew people would latch on it and he found it amusing and it definitely is.

It's similar to taking a crap and putting it up on display and having some morons come along trying to be "hip" and "non-conformist" and claim it is such a wonderful thing.

People like you will always exist... Your single cell brain can only take so much and the world is confusing to you. I bet you live with, have friends, and enemies that all have single cell brains too? You all play your little games, let your ego's battle it out. Claim your more intelligent than the other but never back it up.

Did your money always tell you "Oh sweet baby, your so special!!"?, "Your such a beautify baby!!"?, and always saying she wanted some "peace and quite"(which you took to be 4'33")?

Unfortunately humanity has created a system where ignorance can persist... it has bypassed evolution so that the stupid can survive. It's unfortunate but I guess cage found an amusing way to deal with it.

So you wanna call silence music? Do you wanna start calling ugly "pretty"? or lets call gravity "ice cream"? That way when you jump off a building you won't die... it will just be ice cream.

Anyways, I've made a cd of "silence" and it consists of only silence... I'll sale it to you for 100$... that's a bargain! I'll take cash or a check... just pm for the details. Oh, and don't have to much fun with it... if you have too many orgasms in one day you can die. Also don't use the cd for anything "unnatural" as it might break.

You know what cages piece means? Well, you know how people relate to the type of music they like? Well... If you can relate to "silence" then that must be what is going on in your head. i.e., nothing! This is what normal folk call ignorance but I guess you call it genius. (maybe your right... who knows... ignorance is suppose to be bliss... or should I say silence?)

Music is organized sound over time. Can we all agree on that?

Next step: Emotions differ from person to person. Regardless of how a piece of music, or a movie, or a book, or anything makes one person feel, it will affect another person differently, invariably, because we each have different worldviews and different paradigms. Can we all agree on that?

Next step: having come this far, can we all reasonably agree that art is best when it inspires thought and debate, thus furthering humanity's understanding of itself?

These are three crucial points that I don't think we've clarified yet. I think if we all agree to them (or, feel free to pick them apart with logical improvements, so we can better reach a mutual understanding,) then we'll be able to discuss on the same level.

JonSlaughter, your post is essentially a Pastafarian telling the Christians that it is ridiculous that they believe in their God and Jesus.

That is the best analogy I can find to the ignorance you spew from your...fingers...

So, how bout this Mr. Superior musical genius. Since your such a master of music, how bout you write a great piece of music from a genre I like? You will sit here(not necessarily you specifically) and lecture me about what is music and what is not and claim you have some special gift from god to determine what is music then surely you can write a piece that I will think is good?

Problem with people like you is that instead of accepting your ignorance you create a new structure where you are a genius. Instead of playing by the rules that others have created you run off crying and decide that you'll make up your own game and change the rules so that you get to decide who is special and who is not.

If you want to call 4'33" music or noise music whatever... that's fine, but don't try pretend that you understand music. You might understand silence and noise... again, that's fine. You can even call it music if you want... I can't force you to be reasonable and use useful definitions. If you want to call a cow a dog just because you don't want to be a "conformist" then so be it.

Don't expect everyone to play your little stupid games(yes, in my system your game is stupid). Are you going to cry because I don't wanna play your stupid game?

I would say "Go write some music"... but obviously you can't. Opps, I guess you can, you've wrote a million pieces already. You must be a master composer of silence!!!

Why don't you take a scraggy, record it, and call that music!! I'm sure 100 years from now someone will enjoy that and will be debating it's intellectual and emotional ramifications.

The funny thing is, you seriously think 4'33" is something magical. What it shows is your ignorance. You had to have cage put it in a context so your little brain could understand it. You hear 4'33"'s all over the place, when you ride the bus, when you go to the mall, when your in your car...

What you don't understand is that cage was making fun of people like you. He knew people would latch on it and he found it amusing and it definitely is.

It's similar to taking a crap and putting it up on display and having some morons come along trying to be "hip" and "non-conformist" and claim it is such a wonderful thing.

People like you will always exist... Your single cell brain can only take so much and the world is confusing to you. I bet you live with, have friends, and enemies that all have single cell brains too? You all play your little games, let your ego's battle it out. Claim your more intelligent than the other but never back it up.

Did your money always tell you "Oh sweet baby, your so special!!"?, "Your such a beautify baby!!"?, and always saying she wanted some "peace and quite"(which you took to be 4'33")?

Unfortunately humanity has created a system where ignorance can persist... it has bypassed evolution so that the stupid can survive. It's unfortunate but I guess cage found an amusing way to deal with it.

So you wanna call silence music? Do you wanna start calling ugly "pretty"? or lets call gravity "ice cream"? That way when you jump off a building you won't die... it will just be ice cream.

Anyways, I've made a cd of "silence" and it consists of only silence... I'll sale it to you for 100$... that's a bargain! I'll take cash or a check... just pm for the details. Oh, and don't have to much fun with it... if you have too many orgasms in one day you can die. Also don't use the cd for anything "unnatural" as it might break.

You know what cages piece means? Well, you know how people relate to the type of music they like? Well... If you can relate to "silence" then that must be what is going on in your head. i.e., nothing! This is what normal folk call ignorance but I guess you call it genius. (maybe your right... who knows... ignorance is suppose to be bliss... or should I say silence?)

Hypocrisy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Irony - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Appeal to probability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ignoratio elenchi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Naturalistic fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Loaded question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cherry picking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologist's_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Biased sample - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ignorant definition | Dictionary.com

Some reading for you. I suggest you look into it before attempting to "argue" on the internet. Though, maybe you should wait until you're sober before doing so. ;)

Nirvana, can we put that as a sticky thread for all new members to read? :D

Problem with people like you is that instead of accepting your ignorance you create a new structure where you are a genius. Instead of playing by the rules that others have created you run off crying and decide that you'll make up your own game and change the rules so that you get to decide who is special and who is not.................. (tl;dr)............................................................

You know what cages piece means? Well, you know how people relate to the type of music they like? Well... If you can relate to "silence" then that must be what is going on in your head. i.e., nothing! This is what normal folk call ignorance but I guess you call it genius. (maybe your right... who knows... ignorance is suppose to be bliss... or should I say silence?)

All I want to say is this: I think you got the bold portion 1/3 right and 2/3 wrong. Yes, composers did go off the advancement and so forth that came before their time..but (as history clearly shows) they either found ways around the rules or completely broke them. The best example here, of many, is Beethoven. All one really has to do to see this is listen to a work of Haydn (say Symphony 101) and then a work of Beethoven (say Symphony 5). Despite a difference in only a couple of decades... Beethoven greatly changed what his predecessors left him. Much can be said of almost any composers since the days of Machaut!

Music is organized sound over time. Can we all agree on that?

I have no problem with that definition, indeed:

Organization can be appreciated retroactively. That is, I can appreciate the "organization" the chance elements created in a performance of 4'33'' AFTER the performance took place and I can attribute the arrangement (organization) of the musical elements to the chance elements. In other words, it is after all just organized sound in retrospect, regardless by which method it is organized.

Even simpler: Music concrete and 4'33''. Take recordings from both types of music and show them to someone who knows nothing. Will they deduce that 4'33'' is "silent?" No, as your comparison is music which is made out of samples including those that appear during performances of 4'33''.

Bottom line: The final end product of a 4'33'' performance produces a musical material indistinguishable from other things which are quite well accepted as "music" (by Varese himself, being a precursor to the Music Concrete movement overall!) Therefore, it fits the definition perfectly fine and it is quite clearly "music" going by Varese's definition.

and

If I wrote a piece of music that emulated the possible outcome of a 4'33'' performance, why is my piece suddenly "music" and 4'33'', which can possibly net the same musical material, not music?

If your answer doesn't rely on the actual musical end product, that's the argument killer. You're arguing it's not music "by default" despite what the actual musical end product is. Despite what it may potentially sound like and how indistinguishable it may be from music which IS accepted as music by your definitions!

As I said earlier to the troll. Basically, it's music if you define music like you just did. It isn't music if you don't WANT it to be, but by any standards concerning sound and timeline, it is music.

That's the end of that argument, really.

I really don't know what this whole discussion – on 16 pages within 5 days – is, or has been [cf. SSC], all about.

Just "listen" to some YouTube uploads of 4' 33'' –– you'll immediately experience what 4' 33'' [or more] is: Non-Music! Two of the best "performances" of 4' 33'' at YouTube is YouTube - John Cage "4'33" with the BBC Orchestra at Barbican and YouTube - 4' 33" with nothing but a black screen – in full, if you like. Have fun "listening" [at best: to yourselves]!

Wow.

JonSlaughter's post is something else. Probably the best thing after the discovery toiler roll.

You caught us, JonSlaughter. We can't pretend any more. No one in the whole world can ever have a different appreciation of music (or an appreciation of different music) than you.

Hail, oh JonSlaughter Almighty. I am so sorry. What in the world gave me the impression that I can like something other than what you like? Thank you so much for awaking me to the truth and reality that is your Word.

Now grow up.

And look up the meaning of these words: argument, fallacy, opinion, fact, truth, bullshit, crap, narrow-mindedness, stupidity and moron.

So, how bout this Mr. Superior musical genius. Since your such a master of music, how bout you write a great piece of music from a genre I like? You will sit here(not necessarily you specifically) and lecture me about what is music and what is not and claim you have some special gift from god to determine what is music then surely you can write a piece that I will think is good?

Problem with people like you is that instead of accepting your ignorance you create a new structure where you are a genius. Instead of playing by the rules that others have created you run off crying and decide that you'll make up your own game and change the rules so that you get to decide who is special and who is not.

:huh:

You do know, I hope, that people who have professionally gone towards the most avant-garde vein of music have already studied and dominated every preceding style, don't you?

No, you don't seem to know that.

Oh, well. You fail.

oh sure.. dominated huh? haha... I guess what your saying is they got tired of performing and but still wanted to pay the bills so they starting "playing" cage? Your a legend in your own mind. Write me a Beethoven sonata that will convince the experts then you can convince me that your right... but in the meanwhile I'll assume that you can't even imitate the masters of the past so you are only a master of the crap you make. That is the only way you'll ever be a master of anything.

You guys are a loving joke. Go take a science class and learn something useful and stop pretending like you have an iota of synaptic activity.

Hey Jon easy there now. Ever considered that it people like you, these dumbstrucklingly narrow-minded people, who are making this world worse?

Is it so difficult to just accept difference instead of forcing your perspective of things as if it is the utter truth.

For the sake of yourself, learn to be accepting and please be less ignorant.

accepting? I don't except ignorance. I'm sorry if that offends you. (no, not really)

Funny, you say I should be more accepting yet you won't accept my belief. Not only does that show how irrational you are but how much of an imbecile you are.

You shouldn't get too upset. Your single brain cell might get overloaded and you might forget to breath.

accepting? I don't except ignorance. I'm sorry if that offends you. (no, not really)

Funny, you say I should be more accepting yet you won't accept my belief. Not only does that show how irrational you are but how much of an imbecile you are.

You shouldn't get too upset. Your single brain cell might get overloaded and you might forget to breath.

The funny thing is, I never once stated that I did not accept your belief.

Another thing that you will sooner or later learn in life, which I personally hope will be painfully marked in your close to non-existent, is to be less arrogant. Arrogance leads to nothing.

Now pardon me I have to unload all this 'mental overload', I do not want to suffocate; still want to be around kicking your sore arse out of this forum.

accepting? I don't except[sic] ignorance.

Must be hard living with yourself, eh?

Blacklisted.

PS:

You do know, I hope, that people who have professionally gone towards the most avant-garde vein of music have already studied and dominated every preceding style, don't you?

Eh not always, it's not a requirement (and it's kind of unrealistic to dominate every single style before the 20th century, too many.) Though honestly having an education ensures that your body of knowledge is strong enough and well-rounded to at least defend yourself in other styles/historical stuff. Even without an actual institutional education, you can still study all sorts of things and become as kickass as all sorts of modern composers who not only were at the avant-garde of their time but analyzed historical stuff with brilliance or at least with a rather interesting perspective.

Why don't you take a scraggy, record it, and call that music!! I'm sure 100 years from now someone will enjoy that and will be debating it's intellectual and emotional ramifications.

It's similar to taking a crap and putting it up on display and having some morons come along trying to be "hip" and "non-conformist" and claim it is such a wonderful thing.

So you wanna call silence music? Do you wanna start calling ugly "pretty"? or lets call gravity "ice cream"? That way when you jump off a building you won't die... it will just be ice cream.

These are all pure gold. Made my day hahahaha (not sarcasm)

*snicker*

Guys, perhaps it's YOU that's being narrow-minded. Jon's making some great points (though a bit abrasively). Cage's piece is silence, so how can it be called music? It makes no sense when people call it music, to me and the other 95% of the world.

*snicker*

Guys, perhaps it's YOU that's being narrow-minded. Jon's making some great points (though a bit abrasively). Cage's piece is silence, so how can it be called music? It makes no sense when people call it music, to me and the other 95% of the world.

4'33'' is about sound.

If you don't know/understand this, you're disqualified automatically from making any comments at all what so ever.

If you do, you would see right away that it IS therefore music as it deals with sound within a span of time, which is the definition that seems to stick. I've already proven HOW it fits with that definition.

Fail harder.

...Cage's piece is silence, so how can it be called music? It makes no sense when people call it music, to me and the other 95% of the world.

But it's NOT silence...the whole point (as I offered ages ago, to be ignored - presumably for it's sound judgment and accurate analysis) is:

It's about being aware of your own existence within a musical environment; of your environment and your aural surroundings.

It's about questioning your own sense of reality; within art and creativity; questioning your definitions of art and creativity.

It's about experiencing and participating in a 'moment' ... a 'happening'.

It's about enjoying sound as music, and vice versa.

SOUND as MUSIC...the sounds all around us. OPEN your ears....

I'm impressed that this is still going after Gardeners statement. AND is actually circulating round again thanks to JT. I wonder how much i'll miss whilst i'm out...

Edit - You guys clearly haven't listened to Nathaniel Nears '32 minutes of silence'. I suggest the work before you argue more.

Shall we agree to dissagree? Both parties have said what they want to say. Why keep it up? I promise you, none of the "defendants" of 4'33" or Cage are listening to this work all the time [sic] or bought it on a CD, such notions are rubbish. They are only defending it against people who refuse to listen and they, in turn don't listen either.

Is it music, is it not music, was Cage important was he not, are there copyrights for the said work, or not? Who the gently caress cares in the end?

I don't think you've ever seen Gardener, QCC, Robin, me, SSC badmouthing other pieces of art, and you have not seen us posting a link to youtube "Hey have a listen to a new performance of 4'33" " On the contrary I think that we all write MUSIC (with capiral lettering, Justin) which can be heard, can be played, has been bought and we are paid to do so (not sure about Gardener and SSC but in general we are professional musicians and composers making a living out of it, especially me, Robin and QCC). Why on earth do you think we stick around to a 17 page thread, if only to try and persuade you (Justin, Jon, etc) not to badmouth anymore, not to be so mean, not to decide on our behalf and not try to set up definitions which are, ultimately bullshit (I didn't set up any definition, did I?)

Is 4'33" an important part of western music? Yes it is.

Is it music though? Who gives a shite?

Did Cage write anything worthwhile? He actually did. Go have a listen to his prepared piano interludes (preludes?) and sonatas and you'll hear some lovely stuff.

Could 4'33" be a joke and Cage laughing his arse off where he currently is? Could be so, no way of knowing. Thing is that in the end the rest of the society came up with ideas BECAUSE of that piece. We changed perception of sound because of the piece, we changed perception of noise because of this (and other pieces, ok). So joke or not joke, it doesn't make a difference really. Point is that there is something to be taken from the piece, whether you want it or not. There's things to be taken from in here as well, even if I said to censor the word in the beginning (jokingly, but see it's 17 pages already).

Please, give it a rest (yes I know, I shoudln't be reading it anyways and I have a choice, but...). Let it be. Art, not art, whatever. Just don't piss on others peoples likes and dislikes. Otherwise I should start pissing on gawd, dawg, osiris, zeus and nitche as well as Wagner, Bach, Beethoven, Part, Messiaen, Brahms and whoever else and I wouldn't like to do that. ;)

I agree with what Nik says there, and will add that the issue is that a lot of kids are not educated enough to understand modern art history or meaning from the get-go as it is far from easy. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)

Music is but one of the multiple disciplines which were turned on its proverbial head many times during the 20th century. A healthy study of modern art history (with careful analysis of the political/social movements as well what was going on in the philosophy and in the aesthetic discourse) is a must for anyone pretending to seriously argue about any of these milestones such as 4'33'' or Duchamps' readymades for example.

So, that's reason I think most of us (QCC, Nik, Gardener, Rob, etc) who have education/background and studies don't simply try to "lol ur rong" but to actually EDUCATE, which while a noble attempt, ends up getting lost amidst the trolling and interwebs.

That's why these threads fail, we simply can't start giving impromptu courses on modern art history and so on in any'ol thread. Nor, really, do I think we want to considering the overall reaction displayed by people, specially newcomers.

This thread is

While ignoring Robin's and Saiming's concurment with SSC...

4'33'' is about sound.

If you don't know/understand this, you're disqualified automatically from making any comments at all what so ever.

If you do, you would see right away that it IS therefore music as it deals with sound within a span of time, which is the definition that seems to stick. I've already proven HOW it fits with that definition.

Fail harder.

Ok then. In the name of making amends and reducing hostility, help me understand. Just saying "it is about sound because of sounds around you" isn't good enough for me. I can appreciate the philosophical nature of the piece how it makes us think of stuff that we wouldn't normally think about in a concert setting, but WHY call it music and WHY call it art? So far, in my naivette, I have not seen justification for either. So please tell me. I DO wish to be less ingorant to this stuff but no one really bothers to TRY and help. This is why people like JonSlaughter go berserk and say that they are feigning genius. It may not be the truth, but it sure as heck looks like it.

Just saying "it is about sound because of sounds around you" isn't good enough for me.

Alright, I'll concede to explaining it maybe in a different way.

So, get rid of all the context you know of 4'33'', in fact, forget everything you know about it.

Instead, imagine that you have an "on" and an "off" switch for music when you're listening. When you listen to music, that switch is "on" so you're listening to things differently than if it is "off," since then you aren't really listening and the noises are going by without you paying attention.

Now, imagine activating the "on" switch when you're, say, in the shower, or riding the bus. Now all those noises that slipped past you, you're listening to them in the same mindset that you would listen to what you normally call music.

You're still listening to sounds and things, but your perspective will probably be different if you're trying to find musical meaning/emotion/??? in noises that you generally don't take in as having that power or ability.

So, try it out. Seriously, just try it once. Erase all your bias and sit down for 4 minutes and 33 seconds, no matter where you are and just listen to everything around you as if you were listening to Beethoven, and put everything that happens sonically in terms of musical material.

I'm not saying that you'll LOVE it or that you'll be compelled to write modern music or whatever such crap, I simply say that you should experience it. After you've done it, you're free to hate it if you want, but at least you're not talking out of ignorance and I will respect that.