Revised Rules and Code of Conduct

And I think you should properly punctuate and take the time to finish your words.

What is a true composition forum? Define it for me please.

Also, when was YC without room for off topic conversation?

i believe that there SHOULD be room for an off topic area. the problem is when there is disrespect and bad feelings going around the forum because of it.

Sorry, my post was a little curt. I didn't mean to be rude.

I actually half agree with Flint. As much as I love the OT, it has gotten a little out of hand.... not to say it was ever really under control to begin with. People should just learn their manners or get out of the tubes. :closedeyes:

If you cannot act accordingly, either refrain from posting or find another site.

Which is.. why so many members have left YC (not necessarily now, but generally).

"Preventing" policies are alright, as long as they don't go over the top and become a bit silly, in my opinion. A police man yesterday kicked a guy's handmade, plastic flute away because "it can be used as a weapon". The guy then offered him his shoes saying "but look, my shoes can be used as a weapon, take them" and the policeman didn't, obviously. In Kingsnorth, the police confiscated items such as bic pens, bike locks, bike lock keys, bike tubes and kids crayons because they could be used as weapons. A spoon was also confiscated, because they said the protester could "dig his way in" the Kingsnorth coal factory.

Apparently, it is in the nature of the members of this website to start fights like that and argue very fiercely. Imagine if we just put all psychopaths and people with mental disorders in jail or decapitated them because potentially they could be dangerous to society. That's what psychologists (thank god) don't do - instead, they try to deal with the source of the problem, not just put the dust under the carpet and pretend the job's done.

As I said above, I believe the easy way is to just make the rules more strict, and have the admins and mods apply them ever so strictly. But it's not necessarily the best way to tackle the problem. The admins should give more effort in trying to find a solution to the problem, understand why their website attracts people who start/initiate such aggressive behaviour in the website, engage with those people, find out why this has been happening. Then, all you need to do is just make a note in the rules that "Such and such behaviour has been noticed in the past in the website. Threads which end up like that will be locked and the members suspended. If you see a conversation heading towards that direction, contact a moderator and they'll try to settle things down, if it's not possible to do it yourself."

Furthermore, I don't really think anyone reads the rules and regulations of any website they join (or any program they install, in fact). So I think another very good idea would be to sum up the rules in 5 short phrases, something like:

and make sure the members get a PM and pager message with those rules on joining the website. Because they WILL read these rules, while they won't read the whole of the Code of Conduct on joining in. And you might say "yeah, but they're supposed to, and we expect them to" - but that's not going to solve any problems. They will behave as if they haven't read the rules, which doesn't really amend the situation. Instead, if you make sure they are familiar with the five most important things about your rules, they will read those 5 short lines and they will be aware of these things, and if they ever think they might be breaking the rules, they will go check with the whole Code of Conduct. I doubt any of you has ever opened and read the whole of your country's Constitution or Law. Yet it can be summed into a few simple things, for newcomes, such as: don't kill, don't steal, don't hit other people, don't damage public property etc. You don't necessarily have to know all of a country's Laws to function and behave within it, but there are some things which are the "top rules" or the "big fat ones" that everyone must know (and does know). It's not applying those rules harder that is going to make people kill less or steal less, but it's making sure everyone KNOWS that they shouldn't kill or shouldn't steal that's going to do it.

Lastly, I'm not questioning the admins' right to change the rules, I'm questioning their decision just now, to which I disagree and I show my disagreement with.

EDIT: Oh wow! I just saw this in the Code of Conduct (as mentioned by other members):

No promotion of an outside forum is allowed! At all. Not in signatures, not anywhere!  

I think this is extreme. Despite the very obvious complications this will have in helping out members (if a member comes and asks for Sibelius or Finale help, according to this rule we are NOT to redirect them to the sibelius or finale help forum..) (which sounds absurd).

Furthermore, I don't understand the reason behind it. Why? Is it because YC will lose members if an outside forum is advertised too much? I think you're losing more members by changing the rules into something abstractly unreasonable and unnecessarily strict and while you may be attracting more new members, I think that's akin to a bad restaurant behaviour: it's always better to hold on to your older customers and respect them than to care more about your new customers; because nothing guarantees that your new customers will stay (especially if they see you don't treat the old customers well), and you will lose your old customers which you spent so much effort keeping there (bad restaurants try to get as many new customers instead of trying to hold on to the old ones).

This is also very similar to saying "This is our pub and we sell Budweiser beer. It is not allowed to talk about any drinks other than Bud." Read this sentence out loud to yourself. Do you sound wise, reasonable or right at all? Again, I'm not questioning your right to say that or to not allow your customers to talk about any other drink other than Bud, but I'm questioning your decision in telling them to do so.

----

EDIT 2: So, let me get this straight. According to your rules (Any and all posts falling in violation of these core rules will be deleted without warning. ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS.), any of the examples of conversations below should be deleted and are not allowed in this forum:

(post: John) If you have any questions about finale, check out the http://www.finaleforum.com/ . It's really helpful!

[must be deleted: promoting a forum other than YC]

(shout: John) Hi

(shout: Mary) Ciao!

[Mary must be banned, she spoke in a different language]

(post1: John) I really like your piece, but I think it would be nicer without the viola

(post2: Mary) Hey, thanks! But the piece is for viola solo...

(post3: Jack) LOL!

[Jack's post must be deleted - it will be considered as spam]

(post: John) What the hell? Haha, that's as funny as two kangaroos having sex!

[John's post must be deleted, as "Posts bearing graphic sexual content will not be allowed; this includes text and images. "]

(shout: robinjessome) http://www.deezer.com/track/54587

(robinjessome's post/shout should be deleted, a) it links/promotes a site other than YC, b) the website contains copyrighted material, and is a "link to an MP3 rendition of commercially released music.")

To be honest, I would suggest you check other websites' rules for their shoutboxes and forums, such as deviantart. Maybe you can learn something from titan websites that have thousands of thousands of members and get thousands of new ones every single day. I think deviantart is a really good website and I've never had any problems with their rules and regulations (apart when one of their admins was breaking a rule and I got punished for it while he didn't, and they denied everything when I addressed the issue and tried to mislead me into believing that he had the permission to do so - which is why I left the website and haven't been there since).

dA Etiquette Policy

FAQ #287: What rules apply to the Chat Network?

FAQ #36: Are there any rules for the shoutbox?

FAQ #263: What is spamming?

FAQ #54: What is flooding?

I also agree with Flint's sentiment (this seems to be a growing trend...) I personally wouldn't miss the Off-Topic if it were taken away. Here's a proposal: only elder members are allowed to see the OT forums. Maybe make a post-count limit or something, or make it a certain period of time (number of months after having joined the site, maybe 12 months, maybe only 6, whatever is appropriate. Reason I'm suggesting this is because I think most of the trouble with the OT is that people get riled up easily and this carries over to the Discussion forums. If we could limit the amount of people that are allowed to flow into the OT forums I think OT discussion would be a lot easier to control and would be a lot more reserved like it used to be. If some people incite/partake in arguments so often, these people could be banned from the OT altogether for whatever time period. Maybe one week first offense, two weeks second offense, third offense a month, 4th offense 6 months. Something to that affect. I just think that right now there is too much going on for everybody to control.

I have the same sentiment as the old-timers here. I really think this board has gone down the cra**er since it has grown so much. The more it grows, the less ideal it will be. I don't think it can ever be the quaint atmosphere it once was. Not unless you handpick certain members and ban the rest, which is absolutely ridiculous. It's great that the site administrators are trying to expand and monopolize, I just hope they all realise that the more they let the site grow, the more they have to try to hold the reigns and control it, the less it becomes like it should be, which is how it was before in old times (the "free-for-all" era I've heard it called.) Essentially, they're destroying YC in favour of a music discussion metropolis. I hope they know this. I don't like how it's becoming, the only reasons I stick around are because I know young composers read the Wiki and I feel like I am helping a younger generation of eager learners by creating a resource through which they can better themselves, and because I'd like to see how this whole Social Networking will eventually turn out.

Anyways, that's my ramblings for the day. Sorry if its a little incohesive.

Edit: I remember somebody recently suggesting somewhere, "We should write a YC Constitution!" Well, like the analogy Juji provided, we already HAVE a "constitution"... it's the Code of Conduct. I personally agree with Juji's propositions. We need to prevent the source of these problems rather than just cover up the issues. An example of when covering problems is bad just happened recently. A moderator deleted or altered somebody's post that had something against the rules in it (I don't know the specifics) and that person began an argument in a thread with the mod. The mod then deleted the whole thread except the first post and basically said "Fine, re-post everything you said. I don't care anymore." At least, that's the story how I read it. I've seen things like this happen many times - just moderating and censoring bad eggs alone won't solve your problems.

. I really think this board has gone down the cra**er since it has grown so much

I totally read that the first few times as down the cracker :laugh:

I really think the language rule should be revised or, in the very least, restated.

Earlier, a certain member chose to make a few comments in Russian in the shoutbox (I know Russian is a sore point right now, but let's not discriminate; being against Russian would be against the rules) and was threatened with a ban by a certain moderator. However, a few hours later, another member made a comment in Spanish (I think... but that's not the point) in the presence of the same mod, while he/she was in the conversation, and yet there was no remark.

And already there is bias when enforcing that particular rule. It's not just the members who need to try and make this work, the staff do too. They can't be overly critical or controlling. Also, they should be revised since so far the majority of shouts in the past few hours should be counted as spam and removed.

Even if we restate the language of the rules so it doesn't sound as harsh, the rules still apply. The reason why we don't encourage cursing is because this "leads to" misbehavior. Misbehavior leads to members making fun of other members, and this goes against the agenda of Young Composers. Whether written in Spanish or Russian, language is irrelevant. If members want to communicate outside of the forum or in a private chat, you are free to chat however way you like (obviously). But in a public forum, this is not, and will not be tolerated, despite the language.

Edit: I remember somebody recently suggesting somewhere, "We should write a YC Constitution!" Well, like the analogy Juji provided, we already HAVE a "constitution"... it's the Code of Conduct. I personally agree with Juji's propositions. We need to prevent the source of these problems rather than just cover up the issues. An example of when covering problems is bad just happened recently. A moderator deleted or altered somebody's post that had something against the rules in it (I don't know the specifics) and that person began an argument in a thread with the mod. The mod then deleted the whole thread except the first post and basically said "Fine, re-post everything you said. I don't care anymore." At least, that's the story how I read it. I've seen things like this happen many times - just moderating and censoring bad eggs alone won't solve your problems.

Perhaps I didn't phrase it properly but running concurrent to to the Code of Conduct should be a Statement of Intent, something that isn't a set of rules or regulations but a description of what the site hopes to achieve and offer and also what it expects from its members and mods.

I don't think this is merely covering up the holes and extending mod power or whatever more that it offers a set of unified ideals which while bereft of actual regulatory power might provide something less controversial but not in place of the Code of Conduct.

As I've said before I think Off Topic is important to the sense of community on the site.

I wrote a simple little phrase in Russian, Qc deletes it and threatens to ban me. He assumed what I wrote was a swear word. I told him to translate it, and he deleted that too! He then says that at the time of posting that phrase I was testing the limits. I've asked him to provide evidence of that. Of course he did not and if he even tried, he wouldn't be able.

Since the forum rules changed to no swearing, I've probably one of the few here who hasn't sworn on purpose (or at all I think) and I've even gone on record telling people to not push the limits or you will get banned. Yet, i'm accused of poor behavior.

Sure I have history and I think comparing Chopin to a chimp is unfair to the chimp, but I don't interact with chopin so my history here hardly matters. I haven't pushed an issue in over a year!

Anyways, more to the point, rules are fine, but even officers have the right to overlook things. Talking to Qc reminded me of that poor football player who couldn't be with his mother-in-law while she died because the officer wanted to write him a ticket.

I know I'm singling out Qc, but mostly because he gets way into things a lot and just threatens with a ban if something annoys him.

Rules are fine, I don't really have much of a problem with them, besides the fact that they are worded so poorly and asininely. However, it's the enforcement that is the problem, it seems like good judgment is replaced with religious zeal in order to make a point.

Even in the forum I mod, which is considerably bigger than this one and much more strict, the rules are there to provide reference not to harass people.

-------

This part here doesn't matter, it's just evidence of Qc uncanny ability to jump the gun.

Bitterduck

[Edit | Delete] It doesn't break the rules

Today 3:20 PM | #templink Bitterduck

[Edit | Delete] why do you keep deleting it

Today 3:20 PM | #templink bob stole my cookie

and I think I took face of YC in a completely different sense than the one you ment. sorry, didn't mean to offend

Today 3:20 PM | #templink QcCowboy

next time, it's a ban

Today 3:19 PM | #templink Bitterduck

[Edit | Delete] why do you keep deleting it

Today 3:19 PM | #templink Oica

lame

Today 3:19 PM | #templink QcCowboy

once you take on an added responsibility at YC, as an editor, a reviewer, or a mod, you are de facto part of the "staff" of YC, and as such, are expected to show a modicum of decorum

Shouts

Today 3:19 PM | #templink bob stole my cookie

Yes, because editors have power

Today 3:19 PM | #templink Bitterduck

[Edit | Delete] You know the russian wasn't swearing

Today 3:19 PM | #templink Mark

nah, she likes power

Today 3:18 PM | #templink QcCowboy

if you don't like it, you can always give up your responsibilities as an editor

Today 3:18 PM | #templink QcCowboy

hehehehe

Today 3:18 PM | #templink bob stole my cookie

or rather, the idea

Today 3:18 PM | #templink Mark

*Mark promises to be responsible. Ish.*

Today 3:18 PM | #templink bob stole my cookie

the face of YC comment

Today 3:18 PM | #templink QcCowboy

going to touch what one?

Today 3:17 PM | #templink bob stole my cookie

wow, I'm not even going to touch that one

bob stole my cookie

wow, I'm not even going to touch that one

Actually the last thing I said before any of that was:

ok... CSPAN burnout

Today 3:03 PM | #templink Bitterduck

[Edit | Delete] So do you think you would benefit if I went through it and actually recreated the real number line

A good 13 minute silence time, so Clear I wasn't pushing anything.

but of course qc has to say

QcCowboy

and since, at the time, you WERE testing the limits of what is acceptable or not, it is quite normal to assume you were using teh russian as a means of bypassing the swear ban

So I ask, when and why would it be reasonable to assume I was testing the limit?

Even if we restate the language of the rules so it doesn't sound as harsh, the rules still apply. The reason why we don't encourage cursing is because this "leads to" misbehavior. Misbehavior leads to members making fun of other members, and this goes against the agenda of Young Composers. Whether written in Spanish or Russian, language is irrelevant. If members want to communicate outside of the forum or in a private chat, you are free to chat however way you like (obviously). But in a public forum, this is not, and will not be tolerated, despite the language.

The points of my post were:

a) the rule was enforced in a bias manner

b) regardless of the fact that there was no actual swearing (cursing or profanity).

Also, it's true that the CoC mentions nowhere that English must be used. It only maintains that proper English is important.

Even if we restate the language of the rules so it doesn't sound as harsh, the rules still apply. The reason why we don't encourage cursing is because this "leads to" misbehavior. Misbehavior leads to members making fun of other members, and this goes against the agenda of Young Composers. Whether written in Spanish or Russian, language is irrelevant. If members want to communicate outside of the forum or in a private chat, you are free to chat however way you like (obviously). But in a public forum, this is not, and will not be tolerated, despite the language.

1) Cursing does not lead to misbehaviour.

2) Misbehaviour and making fun of others are mutually exclusive.

What are you on about?

Also, the last half of that post didn't make much sense.

I seriously think we all just need to chill.

I mean... come on, guys.... just ... relax.

*expects to get shot sometime soon... *

/sigh

and it is so unfair, because Bitterduck got banned for something he didn't do...

oh...

wait..

He DIDN'T get banned?

You mean that all that happened was someone told him to stop posting stuff in Russian?

Wow, these new rules sure are draconian.

cursing IS misbehavior daniel....;)

You mean if I would've posted that Russian one more time you would have not banned me? Then are you telling me you just make idle threats of banning just for kicks? Whatever happen to being the face of yc once you become a staff?

all this happen every the rules are changed ???, or this is the frist time the rules are changed or "edited" would be the word....

If i'm not wrong, the rules were changed before the "Russian incident"..... was the 4'33'' thread the detonator for all this ?...I think I agree with EnigmusJ4, we all must come down, or the results will be the leaving of members (members who used to be useful here) or that kind of "casualties"

I seriously think we all just need to chill.

I mean... come on, guys.... just ... relax.

Agree :)

Uh... here, I read the new CoC and have some comments regarding clarity and phrasing

*sharing and multiple accounts:

The final bullet point states that if you share your login information with a banned or suspended member, you receive the same punishment as a member who has created an additional account.... which is, as defined above it, the deletion of said multiple account. Unless, of course, you mean the punishment for subsequent deleted accounts, in which case, you should clarify.

Also what happens if you share your account with a non-banned/suspended member? Is there no punishment?

These rules were created on things that have actually happened / things we have had problems with / things we are currently having problems with. There was not a rule created for sharing an account with a member that is not banned or not suspended because, quite frankly, it was not thought of. Thank you for bringing it up. I will take it into consideration and make an addition to the rule.

*Reviews:

Are you saying that a numerical rating contained within any post will be removed or that posts consisting solely of a numerical rating and a "good job!" will be considered spam and removed?

I have read several reviews remarking on various aspects of a piece and rating each aspect on a numerical scale. Are you saying it is inappropriate to assess a piece by its strengths and weaknesses using this kind of system?

(That particular rule actually came from the original "Board Rules" - in other words, I was not the author, I merely re-worded it. I remember when it was put into play... at least two years ago.)

It is much more helpful to the composer to have their piece assessed with words rather than numbers. A numerical ranking system is fine for a competition, but not so helpful when dealing with an individual that would like USEFUL commentary on their piece. Having someone say "oh 7 out of 10" is hardly helpful. I suppose it is not necessarily a "bad" thing, it is just not necessary and we simply choose to disallow it. To answer your question, a post in a forum other than Major Works containing "Good Job 7/10" would have the "7/10" part removed. In Major Works, yes - the entire post would be removed.

*Links in Siggies:

"No promotion of an outside forum is allowed!"

Isn't that a little harsh? Not even other music forums? Sure, excessive spamming regarding that forum would be intolerable but what about sites like what was the Music History Forum project? It was related to YC, it linked back to YC and it's members were that Of YC. Or GANG? Members advertise it in their signature and while it isn't exclusively and internet forum, it sure as hell has one.

I read another comment on this somewhere about linking to Finale or related forums. You and the other commenter bring up a good point (again, this is one of those old rules that I did not personally create :P )

I talked to chopin about it tonight and he said that perhaps we can allow links to USEFUL music related forums that are not competitors of YC (such as other composition forums) and are not presented as spam (being the topic of a thread created by a NEW member).

Thank you for bringing your concerns forward. I will edit the revisions into the Code of Conduct as soon as possible.

Even if we restate the language of the rules so it doesn't sound as harsh, the rules still apply. The reason why we don't encourage cursing is because this "leads to" misbehavior. Misbehavior leads to members making fun of other members, and this goes against the agenda of Young Composers. Whether written in Spanish or Russian, language is irrelevant. If members want to communicate outside of the forum or in a private chat, you are free to chat however way you like (obviously). But in a public forum, this is not, and will not be tolerated, despite the language.

after all pseudo sourcefull educating i got on why this is a PRIVATE forum, chopin comes out gun blazing and says - my god - this is a PUBLIC forum!!!

so, private or public? both? privately public or publically private? as in - 'privation of publicity'?

How about 'priblic' ? or 'publate'... ?

Just kidding... :)

/sigh

and it is so unfair, because Bitterduck got banned for something he didn't do...

oh...

wait..

He DIDN'T get banned?

You mean that all that happened was someone told him to stop posting stuff in Russian?

Wow, these new rules sure are draconian.

You know, when I hear this kind of "defense" from a moderator, it runs chills in my spine.

I may be the new guy on the block, but I can sense unfairness when I see it. I've also seen, on more than one occasion, that a Mod spoke very rudely to other members, and then excusing their behavior by saying "the other guy started it". Well maybe he did, but replying to rude post with another rude post is only making the problem worse, isn't it?

I'm not saying this to be judgemental. I'm simply saying that it's rediculous to try and enforce a rule which you do not obey yourself.

And this goes not only for the Mods, but for all of us. I've never written an offensive post on YC, and I'll never will, because this issue is important to me. I'll never flame someone or belittle someone on YC, even if "he did it first". Not because I'm such a saint (I'm not - as anyone who met me in person can testify), but because this place means too much to me. And if you care for YC too, I respectfully ask that you do the same.

How about 'priblic' ? or 'publate'... ?

Just kidding... :)

actually, it made me think of 'pubic' :)

which is not so much worse than an hybrid oxymoron of 'private forum'.

after all pseudo sourcefull educating i got on why this is a PRIVATE forum, chopin comes out gun blazing and says - my god - this is a PUBLIC forum!!!

so, private or public? both? privately public or publically private? as in - 'privation of publicity'?

See why it's unfair to the chimp now? :w00t:

It is both, and let me explain :)

This is a public forum in "it is publicly available for all". Confusingly enough, this public forum is privately owned.

It is both, and let me explain :)

This is a public forum in "it is publicly available for all". Confusingly enough, this public forum is privately owned.

do you think this obvious trivia explains anything? sure, you can delete, ban, do whatever you want (as an owner), but, more importantly, can you see that you cannot rule/regulate publicity by authority, or, i'll be clear on this, by power? because then you no more have a public forum (not even a forum in the first place), but, well, may i say, swingers party only for chosen ones?

and this makes any of your arguments about belittling, offending ridiculous and self-contradictory at best, because - if this is a private 'forum', or closed party, or a political party - offending and belittling comes as a joke, mascarade - becomes impossible.

This is why St. Paul could come to Greece and speek himself out in agora denying and trying to laugh at greeks as being learned pagans (that is free philosophical figures), and, what is most important, no one would care to ban, burn or otherwise deal with him in a power driven way. If agora (from which 'forum' derives) is open and public-social place-space, it is such for everyone . Hell, even Diogenes could come there (into agora) and have a *bleep* fun.

Now this is freedom and an example of political (public) culture!

And i wish YC go that way and not some pseudo-public-private-capital-imperialist route!

And i wish it sincerely.

You guys are funny.

Aside from not replying to any of the points I made, I got banned from the shoutbox just two minutes ago. That's because I said the following phrase:

"boob tat cock donkey cat sex"

I really don't want to go in depth of informing all of you that all of the aforementioned words (apart from "sex") are animals and these are terms used in every day language. The context I used them was not a vulgar, offensive, cursing or aggressive context. And I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be allowed to say the word "sex".

Bye bye. Have fun for the rest of YC. I can't be bothered to write down all the reasons for which I'm leaving, firstly because the post will probably be deleted (oops), secondly because it should be obvious by now why people are leaving. If it isn't, take a break and rethink what you've done and what you haven't done.

I will not return to this website unless the administrators kiss my behind while humming the french national anthem backwards.

As this is unlikely to happen, I salute you (oh wait, I spoke a word in French!) (BAN!)

-Laonikos

You guys are funny.

Aside from not replying to any of the points I made, I got banned from the shoutbox just two minutes ago. That's because I said the following phrase:

"bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep"

I really don't want to go in depth of informing all of you that all of the aforementioned words (apart from "sex") are animals and these are terms used in every day language. The context I used them was not a vulgar, offensive, cursing or aggressive context. And I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be allowed to say the word "sex".

Bye bye. Have fun for the rest of YC. I can't be bothered to write down all the reasons for which I'm leaving, firstly because the post will probably be deleted (oops), secondly because it should be obvious by now why people are leaving. If it isn't, take a break and rethink what you've done and what you haven't done.

I will not return to this website unless the administrators kiss my behind while humming the french national anthem backwards.

As this is unlikely to happen, I salute you (oh wait, I spoke a word in French!) (BAN!)

Laonikos