Composition Major

I have a question about pursuing a composition major. It seems that a lot of conservatories / universities now a days are looking for modern styles of composition in their students. They also seem to be looking for those who compose for large ensembles and orchestras. As a person who composes almost entirely for piano in the late classical / early romantic (beethoven, schubert, chopin) idiom, would I have trouble getting accepted to the average composition program.

Just be you. Write what you write. You LEARN how to do what you can't. If it's good, it's good.

I have a question about pursuing a composition major. It seems that a lot of conservatories / universities now a days are looking for modern styles of composition in their students. They also seem to be looking for those who compose for large ensembles and orchestras. As a person who composes almost entirely for piano in the late classical / early romantic (beethoven, schubert, chopin) idiom, would I have trouble getting accepted to the average composition program.

Have trouble? Trouble is not the word that even describes what you'll have. Think of it this way, you'll have a better chance performing an Avril Lavigne song at your Juilliard/conservatory audition and getting accepted than you would with classical/romantic and only piano compositions. These schools are generally very "progressive" and don't take too well to revivalist/pastiche compositions. Sorry but if you ask me you have absolutely no chance, but who knows.

Have trouble? Trouble is not the word that even describes what you'll have. Think of it this way, you'll have a better chance performing an Avril Lavigne song at your Juilliard/conservatory audition and getting accepted than you would with classical/romantic and only piano compositions. These schools are generally very "progressive" and don't take too well to revivalist/pastiche compositions. Sorry but if you ask me you have absolutely no chance, but who knows.

Harsh.

But true, actually. It's a pity; conservatories and colleges are looking for students who can bring something new to the table. Students that are looking to the future, not trying to bring back the past. Even so, you may want to ask the admissions board; who knows, maybe you may have a chance!

Well, the whole point of a composition degree would be to beef up your skills in all areas, so you know what you are doing. Trust me, they will not want you to write SOLELY for orchestra/large ensembles. That would be totally impractical performance-wise. What they WILL do, however, is force you to write for various ensembles. Don't be afraid of writing for something you're not used to writing for. You never know unless you try. The degree is not in "piano composition", but "composition" itself. The program (should) prepare you for all sorts of groups that you might have to (or want to) write for.

In terms of the style, I don't believe any good program would force a particular style upon you. The higher level school, such as Julliard, might push for it, but then just don't go there. Find a program and a teacher that will encourage your own growth and talents.

This being said, don't be turned off because of exploration! You might find a niche in minimalism, or serialism. And unless you actually compose pieces in this style (under the guidance of a good teacher) you will never know whether or not you enjoy that style.

So to answer your question would you have trouble getting in? Probably not too much. Unless you are going for a very "prestigious" school, you should be fine. You go there to learn, they certainly don't expect you to be a Corigliano or Xenakis.

Remember, the opportunity of a degree is to learn and be exposed to as many things as possible. Keep an open ear and take in all the influences you can get.

Just out of curiosity, what gave you this impression of universities?

Do you play piano?

If so I've heard thats its almost easier to apply with an instrument and then to switch to composition later.

I dunno I'm not in college yet but thats what I've heard

Harsh.

But true, actually. It's a pity; conservatories and colleges are looking for students who can bring something new to the table. Students that are looking to the future, not trying to bring back the past. Even so, you may want to ask the admissions board; who knows, maybe you may have a chance!

Yeah, I'm getting increasingly irritated with the notion that anything tonal is "neo romantic" and the ridiculous implication that if it doesnt dabble in atonality that it isnt "bringing anything new to the table." The entire idea of "neo" anything rides on the notion that there is an aspect set firmly in the past, thus we are already operating under the assumption that tonality is in fact a thing of the past, when in all fairness, atonality has by no means established itself over tonality by any standards other than the collective wishful thinking of the academy.

It's just such an irritating bias. "Art" music after the turn of the century, with the Second Viennese School, has been full of all sorts of hypocritical contradictions that no one is willing to talk about or acknowledge. It's an incredibly small minded view of music and its history. No one wants to acknowledge what exactly happened during the 20th century with music's role in society and its existence as "art"

Yeah, I'm getting increasingly irritated with the notion that anything tonal is "neo romantic" and the ridiculous implication that if it doesnt dabble in atonality that it isnt "bringing anything new to the table." The entire idea of "neo" anything rides on the notion that there is an aspect set firmly in the past, thus we are already operating under the assumption that tonality is in fact a thing of the past, when in all fairness, atonality has by no means established itself over tonality by any standards other than the collective wishful thinking of the academy.

I agree but the view that anything tonal is immediately "of the past" is beginning to disappear. It really depends on what conservatory/university you decide to go to. Whilst at an musical institution simply ask what kind of music people write. If you get told that people can write whatever they wish, and that there are people writing in many styles including classical/avante-garde/John Williams/Romantic/neo-romantic etc (within reason) then you'll probably be ok. If you do write in an older style (admittedly one that could be mistaken for an actual romantic composer as opposed to a modern take on romantic) then you will probably have to make sure that the quality of your work is absolutely impeccable, or at least show very high potential.

Anyway back to the OP - I would try to make yourself accustomed to modern or at least early to mid 20th century music. The common path is to jump straight in with something very experimental, but really you should slowly acclimatising yourself, searching hard for composers you identify with. It might seem like an ordeal but I promise you that your taste will change and therefore so will your composition desires. You might find yourself wanting to write in a more modern idiom that accomodates your Chopinesque/Beethoven preferences. Basically I'd try to move your tastes forward a few years, but don't worry it won't diminish your love of romantic music.

I've studied composition at two different schools and have not once been dictated "how" or "what" to write (at least style-wise, i have been asked to write a string quartet or a brass quintet...etc.) subsequently i have written in a variety of styles, ranging from "atonal" pitch sets, 12 tone, to tonal "minimalist" style music and i just finished an indeterminate piece in the style of John Cage. (for a class project on John Cage)

while the composition degree is what most people want, its actually all about the relationship with the professors. I transferred out of SUNY Fredonia b/c I had issues with the professors there. I ended up studying music again in Syracuse University (after a year of wandering from major to major...the parents, they love me) and I adore the professors. I'm friends with most of them and they genuinely care about my progress as a composer, in whatever vein that happens to be in.

A good Composition professor won't dictate a style to you, but rather help you develop your own voice. It isn't 1950, its 2009. The strictness of "academia" doesn't really exist anymore. At least in my experience.

Having gone through bachelor's and master's degrees in composition, all I can tell you is:

if you have no interest in learning about "more modern music" and want to continue writing 19th century pastiche, then a university degree in composition is not what you require.

there have been excellent comments made to you in this thread.

However, if you truly wish to simply continue writing in the "style" you described, you should look into another degree than a "composition" degree.

The purpose of a bachelor's degree as a composition major is to expand your horizons and teach you as much as possible. It isn't to "make a composer out of you". You need to be willing to accept things that you wouldn't normally be interested in.

If you continue on to graduate school, then you will be expected to start showing signs of individuality (regardless of whether you write music that is tonally grounded or not) and be honing your craft (technique).

If you continue on to post-graduate work, the emphasis is on "experimentation". The point of a post-grad degree is that you will be exploring the matter you have chosen and advancing its study through your thesis. You are expected to "publish" a learned paper in your chosen field... as a composer, this would be a composition (obviously), but one that demonstrates the principles you will advance as the topic of your thesis

So, as you see, the three levels of university are for different purposes.

As for the matter of schools imposing "styles", well, sadly, some do. Some don't however. I believe the former are in error.

However, you MUST not confuse "encouraging the student to explore" with "imposing a style". Simply because you have a class (or classes) where you learn to use various modern techniques that might not at first appeal to you, does not mean that you are being "forced" to write in a particular style.

My personal view on composition is that it is a field of endeavor where the artist SHOULD be (which is why I said "my personal view") always pushing his own boundaries, throughout his life. Just how far you push those boundaries is entirely up to you, but I don't believe it should ever stop. When it does, you become nothing more than a craftsman, repeating the same thing over and over. The "Artist" is never satisfied with simply "repeating".

QcCowboy, I completely agree. When I got in to college, during our Comp I class the first thing that the professor told was: "If you are expecting to compose light tonal stuff, then this isn't the class for you. In this class we are going to expand your creative thinking by showing you multiple styles that are acceptable in today's musical culture." I think that summed up pretty well what my bachelor degree has been about.

I'm sure I'll have fun pursuing my masters degree as well...

Morgri, I'm glad you're enjoying it :)

I HAVE noticed that students doing their bachelor's here tend to write music that is far more experimental, then get to their master's degree and tend to pull back a tiny bit and research more of a mid-ground to the whole tonal/atonal dichotomy.

Speaking for myself, my bachelor's had me using latin squares (is that what they're called in english?... it's a means of modifying tone-rows), and aleatoric techniques, and outright serialism.

While my master's thesis was considerably more "tonal" oriented.

And needless to say, the music I've been writing since is more relaxed technique-wise. But I still have fun incorporating elements from everything I've learned. I always hope that that is what makes my music mine.

In our class, he gave us experimental techniques in comp one and then from Comp 2 through 4 we were allowed to do what we wanted. I myself went in a more dissonant/atonal/ but still rather tonal way (as you can hear by some of my music). Since I haven't gotten to the masters degree I don't know what to expect from it. When I go, I just hope to better my compositional style into a more solid one.

We'll see though.

Add my two cents -

1) Your portfolio though very important is not the sole determinant in your acceptance at a conservatory/school. They look closely at your goals and aspirations etc. If you do write 19th century style piano music and you tell the composition department that is all you want to do and just get better at it - well as many have said do not pursue a composition degree. To be a COMPOSER AT ALL DOES NOT REQUIRE A COMPOSITION DEGREE! I think even this has been said by Qc and others. You can pursue a music theory/performance degree in the States elsewhere it is under a different name and the coursework a little broader (possibly). Again though, if you show a varied portfolio - you have a few non piano pieces and show a little experimentation your options will be far greater. So it is up to you - you can vary your portfolio or stay with it and look for schools that would be interested in you and look into music theory/performance degrees to expand your options.

2) One factor not mentioned is the nature of the school and conservatory. I showed my works from 2008 to Sam Adler inquiring about the Masters degree. He said I had some "nice work" but thought Juilliard is the wrong place for a middle aged adult interested in pursuing a Composition degree. He suggested the City University of New York system. And note I do not write in a 19th century style - mine is more 20th century.

3) Oh don't be afraid to research the schools and then apply. To be honest much of what you learn about music in school is a combination of art and artifice. So I would take rejection and admission from music schools with great equanimity - I mean it is not the same importance as a marriage proposal to your sweetheart you have been dating for 4 years or trying to adopt a child from a troubled home for goodness sake!!!

A good Composition professor won't dictate a style to you, but rather help you develop your own voice. It isn't 1950, its 2009. The strictness of "academia" doesn't really exist anymore. At least in my experience.

YES! Somebody realizes this! Admittedly, it does exist some places, but then don't go to those places! The point is to find a teacher who works with you while broadening your horizons.

I'm frustrated with all this ranting about the "academy". Tonal music is embraced nowadays more than in 1960 (or in 1500, for that matter), and even in 1960, there were many important composers who worked with tonality and universities that didn't force avant-garde music upon students; the key was finding them, and realizing that even within tonality, you had to be innovative. So please, if you're going to rant about the music education system, I'd rather not hear it.

Look at QcC's and comp's posts.

I agree with a lot of the comments here and I encourage you to learn more about modern music.

As far as what YOU want to do as a composer is completely up to you. You can simply write only for piano in classical/romantic style all you want and no one will stop you! (obviously)

To me, this modern style and ideas are now more to satisfy oneself rather than the public. What I mean by that is that you should have this really strong desire to compose whatever you want!

If you REALLY want to satisfy the public, then I suggest write Pop, Rock, Hip Hop so Hannah Montana or other pop stars can make it a hit. (I'm not saying that there aren't hit "21st century classical" composers or film scorers, etc with big names)

If you REALLY have this "calling" to write only for piano in romantic/classical style, then how can you let anyone stop you! : ) There will always be a BA program in Composition that will take almost ANYONE as long as you are interested. However, my suggestion to you is to check out ALL TYPES of music from EVERYWHERE, ANYTIME especially in your young age.

I'm 18, a senior in high school, and I'm going to New England Conservatory as a BM Composer this fall. I probably went through similar events that you're going through, looking for colleges, conservatories, comparing, researching, etc... : )

Thanks for all the responses guys they've been a really big help. I have at least six months still before I really have to buckle down and decide what I'm doing for university. So I think until then I'm just going to compose and see how my style develops.

My constant suggestion to all of these threads is to go to a normal (that is, any decent) university and DO NOT declare your major until the utmost last second you need to (this was 4th semester for me). College is not a professional school, and so the student should expose himself to as much as possible, which isn't likely when you're being tracked through a program. And a Music program will make you skip basic life lessons like Calc, to boot.

I dunno, I think rising freshmen really overemphasize what they're going to do in college -- get there first, then decide what classes you want to take, etc...

I second what Ferk said - my undergrad began as a math major when I realized how mediocre my grammar and high school music education had been. I soon switched to English but throughout I hung out with some music students and took a few courses - piano and a little theory. I am glad I did study Foundations of Analysis, Linear Algebra (and struggled thru them) as well as read Tristram Shandy, Tom Jones, Milton, Joyce, Twain, Sartre and worked with autistic kids for one month, lived in Scandinavia for 10 months as well as do some stupid college party stuff - I just wished I had a car then.

BTW Ferk nice promo about having your works performed. I wouldn't mind giving a few of your piano pieces a try this summer. PM me on this though so the thread doesn't get derailed.

Have trouble? Trouble is not the word that even describes what you'll have. Think of it this way, you'll have a better chance performing an Avril Lavigne song at your Juilliard/conservatory audition and getting accepted than you would with classical/romantic and only piano compositions. These schools are generally very "progressive" and don't take too well to revivalist/pastiche compositions. Sorry but if you ask me you have absolutely no chance, but who knows.

How can you make such an assessment of someone's abilities and potential based from such a brief description of their influences, which are just that - influences. The early origins of Jazz drew upon strong tribal musical traditions from African slaves and ancient ones at that. To make a long history lesson short American Folk music, Catholic liturgical music, the European classics we all know and love, and the early days of American Blues blended in time to create an undefinable style we like to call Jazz. Have you inferred anything from what I wrote RequiemAeternam? Well I can continue

Here's another history lesson you all should know. The twin Voyager space probes were launched in 1977 to travel to and explore Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. In the 32 years since their initial launch the probes have traveled 9.79 billion miles from our planet and in the coming months they will enter interstellar space: They will be between the stars. Yeah yeah I know your all thinking who cares, but the crazy bastards who launched that thing put something of value on it, a golden record.

This phonograph record - a 12-inch gold-plated copper disk containing sounds and images selected to portray the diversity of life and cultures of Earth. The contents of the record include 115 images and a variety of natural sounds, such as those made by surf, wind and thunder, birds, whales, and other animals. To this they added musical selections from different cultures and eras, and spoken greetings from Earth-people in fifty-five languages, and a printed message from President Carter. Here's the selection of music we chose at that time.

Bach, Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F. First Movement, Munich Bach -Orchestra, Karl Richter, conductor. 4:40

Java, court gamelan, "Kinds of Flowers," recorded by Robert Brown. 4:43

Senegal, percussion, recorded by Charles Duvelle. 2:08

Zaire, Pygmy girls' initiation song, recorded by Colin Turnbull. 0:56

Australia, Aborigine songs, "Morning Star" and "Devil Bird," recorded by Sandra LeBrun Holmes. 1:26

Mexico, "El Cascabel," performed by Lorenzo Barcelata and the Mariachi M

If I only knew what this has to do with this thread or RequiemAeternam's post…

Strike that. I'm not really that interested to know.

If I only knew what this has to do with this thread or RequiemAeternam's post

Have trouble? Trouble is not the word that even describes what you'll have. Think of it this way, you'll have a better chance performing an Avril Lavigne song at your Juilliard/conservatory audition and getting accepted than you would with classical/romantic and only piano compositions. These schools are generally very "progressive" and don't take too well to revivalist/pastiche compositions. Sorry but if you ask me you have absolutely no chance, but who knows.

Where do you go to school, just curious

I know what your thinking RequiemAeternam, "Where's Schoenberg?" Well I guess the 26 years from his death to the voyager launches were not enough since he was so ahead of his time you know the whole avant garde-thing lol. Or maybe the people from earth decided it was best to have the beings that one day long after the earth has passed to hear humanities greatest accomplishments instead of silly and odd sounding tunes that resemble the static that fills the comic void....

The conceit that you think beings from another planet would have the same aesthetical views as conservative Westerners makes me chortle, CHORTLE I SAY!

Where do you go to school, just curious

The conceit that you think beings from another planet would have the same aesthetical views as conservative Westerners makes me chortle, CHORTLE I SAY!

Did i say that et had ears

:laugh:

I take it you now lack the ability to communicate in writing