Conservatories in New York City

I recently got an e-mail requesting some tips about applying to conservatories in New York City. I thought I would share my response with the community.

A little disclaimer: Note that some of the things I say, especially about Juilliard, are opinions and speculation and things I have heard through the grapevine. Also, this is in no way an attempt to start a flame war over which conservatories are the better ones. This is just my personal story of what happened and what I experienced in the conservatory system.

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There's one key question that every student who plans to go to a conservatory must ask himself, one that I asked myself all the time: Is being a composer really what you want to do for the rest of your life? If so, then attending a conservatory would be one option. Granted, conservatories is great for honing one's skill, but it is by far not the only route to a composition career. If there is any inkling of a doubt in the student's mind that they might want to be something else after college, they should not go to a conservatory. It would be a waste of time, effort, and especially, money. Conservatories, being private institutions, are very expensive and you must be very careful about where you spend your money, especially in our economy these days. University music schools are very good schools that will often truly teach rather than just guide. Conservatories are very much about self-study, about guiding the student to something that he/she probably already knows. But with university schools, they have a much more varied experience levels among their students requiring them to teach. I'd say that even more so today, conservatories are becoming a rare find among schools that truly educate as opposed to give you a shiny piece of paper with your name on it and the president's signature, at a cost of over $100,000. New York City has three of these conservatories, all with their own advantages and drawbacks.

My personal story: I moved to NYC in 2000 and did not really understand what my future would hold. Six years later, I had settled on the profession of composer and wanted that more than anything, still do. I applied to the "Big Five" conservatories in the Northeast, hoping for one in New York so I could stay in the city. I applied to Juilliard, Mannes, Manhattan School of Music (MSM), all in New York; New England Conservatory in Boston; Eastman in Rochester, and the Royal College of Music in London. I didn't to apply to Oberlin because I wasn't interested in studying in the middle of Ohio, and I didn't apply to Peabody or Curtis (Baltimore and Philadelphia respectively) because I wanted to stay in New York and I thought I wasn't good enough for Curtis (a tuition-free school and considered the hardest college to get into in the country). Thus, I went through all the motions of auditions in September 2007. I submitted five works of varying instrumentations from chamber to orchestra. I passed the pre-screening for and offered at an audition at all of the schools except Juilliard. However, I was lucky enough to get inside the Juilliard building when the RCM auditions were there. The auditions were relatively painless except for Eastman because there was an instrumental audition also required. Mannes was surprisingly the easiest. The basic format was an interview with the Composition faculty and a theory test. I was accepted into only one school, however: Mannes. I went to Mannes for one semester right at the beginning of the recession downfall. Needless to say, I had no idea this was coming and greatly impacted my financial stability at the school. I had to pull out after only one semester $15,000 later. However, I was able to work out a deal with my composition teacher where I could have lessons with him. Now I'm attending a Community College in SUNY for free (parents are professors there) until I can figure out my next move. So the conservatory route ended up a bit sour for me. Though I haven't lost faith yet. I plan on re-applying at the latest for my masters degree.

Since I assume you're only interested in the New York City schools, I'll focus on them in more detail.

First, Juilliard. I know little about Juilliard internally so all I can offer is my perception and stories I have been told. Basically, it is the snob school, the Harvard of Conservatories, if you will. It is the hardest to get into and the often the least scholarship-bound despite its heavy endowment. Juilliard recently got a building upgrade with the renovation of Alice Tully Hall so the facility looks pretty. But don't let that fool you. There has been much debate over whether the school is really as "education friendly" as it was years ago. Some argue that once Lincoln Center was built, that gave Juilliard the right to brag about its position as the top of the elite schools rather than its academic merits. Today, it is considered by the New York scene as a "name only" school, the one where you give them lots of green paper and they give you paper back with a gold seal on it, and that's about the size of it. Juilliard is, and likely always will be, about who you know, not what your talent is. Be that as it may, you should still audition there, if not for anything but the experience. Many baccalaureate students are intimidated at Juilliard auditions and will sometimes fail them terribly. But I wouldn't worry too much. The only circumstance I would recommend going to Juilliard is if you got a full-ride, and even then, be skeptical. If you hate it, weigh a better school over leaving. I was in the building for an hour and I could just feel the snobbery emulating from the walls. It was rather scary. But, that's just my impression. I'd take it with a grain of salt and give them the benefit of the doubt.

The second school is the Manhattan School of Music. This school is located on 122nd street in Morningside Heights, a stone's throw away from Colombia University and across the street from Riverside Church, the venue for a majority of their concerts. It is the largest conservatory out of the three. They have their own residence hall (which I believe is required staying for freshmen). MSM is the only true private conservatory out of the three and thus have the highest tuition. (I'm told that Juilliard gets massive funding from the Foundation for Lincoln Center, a quasi-government organization to take care of Lincoln Center, but I have no confirmation on this). Manhattan School has its own form of snobbery but it's not as apparent as Juilliard being that it is informally tied to Colombia. I'd say Manhattan School is a very solid school for instrumentalists particularly. Their Jazz program is phenomenal and a great asset should a composer want to branch out. I don't know much about the MSM faculty, though I do know that their audition format was the most unusual. They had us come in the first day to take a test. Then we were assigned an overnight composition project. On the second day, we were to present the piece to a panel of the composition faculty, a group as large as seven or eight professors; very intimidating, probably intentionally so. The facility was nice, neither here nor there.

Mannes, the third school, is my favorite not only because I went there, but because it really is the most tightly knit school. It is the smallest and thus has a much more personal attention-type education which is a big plus. The school is very theory based and is greatest for composition, theory, and vocal majors. The audition is as follows: once past the pre-screening, you get an interview with the composition faculty. Then you take several theory tests during the rest of the day. There is a theory test, a theory interview (which is very interesting, they grade your theory test right in front of you and tell you straight up which theory course you would be taking should you get accepted), a piano test (strictly for placement), and a dictation test. For the piano test, the student need not know piano, but they should be able to get around a keyboard. If they know piano, they should prepare a simple piece.

My composition teacher is David Loeb; I recommend him if you enjoy his teaching style and sarcastic humor. I suggest a preview lesson with him in just case you don't like him. But personally I've had great times with him. Not much experience with the others expect for Robert Cuckson who taught advanced theory, a worthy alternative to David Loeb. Overall, the composition faculty there are excellent and all are professionals in what they do which is very important for learning. The primary courses for a composition student includes: a theory course, a keyboard harmony course (figured bass etc.), a piano course, an orchestration and/or modern composition course, an analysis course (Schenkarian Analysis), a dictation course, an ear training course (solfege and clefs), chorus, and of course, composition private lessons. Academics such as Western Civilization and English are also required.

I hope this will be helpful to you and your student. Sorry for writing an entire essay on the topic; there is much to be said about a conservatory education. Don't hesitate to ask any questions you may have further.

Sincerely,

Justin Tokke

Justin -

Let me add some modifications as I have dealt with the undergrads at Juilliard as well as a few of the grads and teachers. Juilliard actually has a good deal of committed educators. Nevertheless, the emphasis is on performers rather than composers in the undergrad. When you get to the graduate school then the playing field levels. As to degree of self-exploration or hand holding - it depends on the program. Juilliard offers an Artist Diploma program which allows much self-exploration with faculty providing just oversight - it is also very difficult to get into.

As for the snob factor - I don't think it is as bad as you make it out to be. It depends on the teachers. Also, Juilliard has one of the best music prepatory schools in the US (and possibly in the world). You have 9 year olds who take the equivalent of intermediate college ear training courses if they started at 6 and 11 or 12 year olds rattling off the harder Bach WTC, Beethoven sonatas, Chopin Impromptus, Bartok Mikrokosms Book 6 and Prokofiev Fugitive Visions in their recitals. The most relaxed school at Juilliard is the Evening Division as they deal with adults from beginners to seasoned musicians.

Mannes - I agree. If you want the feel of a small college/conservatory in New York City this is the school for you. Mannes' theory department is considered extremely strong. The feel of the place is a little like Oberlin - though Oberlin is a little more rigorous I believe in the performance arena. Nice thing about Mannes is it is part of the New School system so you have the opportunity to switch to a liberal arts college or take a few courses through the New School. It is difficult but possible.

Manhattan School of Music - I do not know much about the composition department though I do know it is rigorous. My experience has been that the vocal, opera, organ departments are excellent. Location is good - not too far from Columbia and a 10 minutes train ride to Columbus Circle/Lincoln Center. I notice much collaboration occurs among the MSM and Juilliard students.

The SUNY and CUNY systems. SUNY - State University of NY and CUNY - City University of New York. SUNY are New York State public universities and CUNY are public colleges in New York City. For composition in the CUNY systen at the undergrad level the strongest schools are in this order 1) Queens College (located fairly far away from Manhattan in Queens though there is ample public transport to Manhattan it just takes a little time) 2) Hunter (located right on the East side of Manhattan very close to many Manhattan schools and venues as well as easy access to Queens and Brooklyn) 3) Brooklyn College (again fairly distant from Manhattan in an so-so area of Brooklyn - very good orchestra - Spano led it for a number of years). Both Queens and Brooklyn colleges offer liberal arts programs too but I am unsure if you can double up with composition and say chemistry (this makes Oberlin unique - undergrads can do this if they are able to handle the tremendous course load).

The SUNY system I am not as familiar with. I do know that SUNY Purchase and SUNY Buffalo have good music programs. SUNY Buffalo has an especially strong composition department and new music community.

I think another way to view a conservatory as a TRADE school. The training for an ornamental welder and a orchestral brass player have many parallels - you need to get foundation courses and training and then much of your education is "on the job" - for the wielder as an apprentice with their union, for the brass player smaller orchestras, chamber ensembles and lower chairs in larger symphonies.

I'd also look carefully at the amount of job development the schools offer - Juilliard places its students on a performer for hire list and actively helps get this info out to organizations. The public institutions may not have such a focussed vocational support as the conservatories.

For example, if it's not the way they'd do it, it's wrong.

Welcome to the real world. Get used to this.

I live in New York State and attending SUNY Fredonia for a year so i can mention some things about the SUNY system...

SUNY Purchase- is a great school for jazz people. One of my best friends is transferring in there as a jazz trumpeter. Another friend of a friend studies jazz bass down there. It's where Regina Spektor went (not really a testament to the school, just an interesting tidbit).

SUNY Potsdam ("Crane School of Music")- Is a great school for music education. Many music students from my town went to school there, 2 of my teachers in high school had graduated from there and had nothing but great things to say about it. I don't know as much about their composition program, as most of my high school band/choir mates went there and I wanted a change of scenery so I didn't really look at it as a possibility.

SUNY Fredonia- Another school who's main focus is on music education. I didn't have the greatest experience in Fredonia and ended up transferring after my freshmen year. (I left music entirely for a year and eventually found my way back my junior year). Setting aside my own personal frustrations with it (which largely have to do with its location, (its a small town school, I come from a small town) and difficulties with one of the professor's there) its a really good school for music. The composition program was headed by Dr. Donald Bohlen when I was there, he's since retired and its headed by Dr. Robert Deemer. They have a student run organization called ETHOS which puts on a new music concert series every year, featuring largely student works with one themed mini concert series featuring guest performers/lecturers. The year I was there it was on French Composers (Debussy/Ravel to Now)

I'm currently at Syracuse University studying music composition. I have nothing but great things to say about SU. Its not known as much for its music program, its hidden in the back of campus, but the professors are excellent and extremely personable. I'm close with several of my professors. It doesn't have the name recognition of some other schools, but my personal experience is education is about what you put into it. Find some good professor's who will push you and you'll be alright

oh boy.... I have much to say on this... more to come..