Dead ? Ghost ? Instruments

Hey ... how're you do.

I've seen scores calling for such a strange instruments that I would like to know which of these instruments can be still used, if it's hard to find, if it longer exists or if ever existed.

Alto Flute in F

Contrabass Oboe

Clarinet in C

Bass Clarinet in A

The C-F Sax family (except the C Melody Sax)

Horn in C

Horn in E

Horn in Eb

Descant Horn in Eb

Descant Horn in F

Descant Horn in Bb

Double Descant Horn

Hunting Horn in D (others ?)

Trumpet in F (the old one, not the soprano)

Double Wagner-Tuba in Bb-F

Ophicleide (any ?)

Alto Flute in F - dead, if ever existed

Contrabass Oboe - dead, if ever existed

Clarinet in C - still made, almost never used, effectively dead

Bass Clarinet in A - dead, this is why Bb Bass Clarinets have a low Eb key

The C-F Sax family (except the C Melody Sax) - none still made, most if not all existing instruments aren't up to modern pitch, best to consider dead

No comment on the brass.

Ok... I see...

Thanks.

Concerning the horns: Most of these aren't actually different instruments, they are just natural horns with different crooks. Horns in C, B, Bb, A, G, F, E, Eb, D are all common crooks of the natural horn, in some cases in versions for two different octaves. Natural horns are still widely used in historical performances of older music, sometimes even by orchestras that don't actually play on historical instruments otherwise. It differs a lot from orchestra to orchestra though, and from country to country, and you can't expect every hornist to have/be able to play natural horn. (Most professional hornists I know however are perfectly able to play it and own one themselves, and I know some horn professors who require their students to play at least all music up to Beethoven on natural horns.) In other orchestras, those parts are all played on ordinary valve horns in Bb/F, with the appropriate transpositions.

But even if a hornist has a natural horn, it's not guaranteed that he will have all the crooks, since they can get quite expensive. But you can generally expect the most common ones like C (basso), D, Eb, E, F, G, Bb (all transposing downwards). But I'd only ask for them in an orchestral piece, if you know they are available and the players are willing to use them. If you're writing for youth/amateur orchestras, that chance is rather slim. For a solo horn piece or chamber-musical setting you should generally be fine with it.

They are still used in contemporary compositions, mainly since they do have certain qualities you don't get with a modern valve horn. Ligeti's Hamburg Concerto comes to mind, for instance.

Hunting horns (corno da caccia/cor de chasse) do exist to some extent, but are mostly only played by people who specialise in historical performance and are not (yet) very widely spread. (I'm saying "yet", because historical practise as a form of musical performance hasn't been established for very long, and the research, reconstruction and education of historical instruments is a process that is still somewhat in the creation.)

oouw! very good... you won a cookie

Hey ... how're you do.

You mean, "how're you doing" or "how do you do". ;)

So, why are you interested in scoring for these instruments, anyways? What redeeming qualities do they have that are so profound over other instruments that it is worth the trouble? Also, are you proficient enough to effectively score with a standard orchestra anyways?

Alto Flute in F - as far as you're concerned, it doesn't exist. Use the alto flute in G.

Contrabass Oboe - too rare. You're better off with a Heckelphone/bass oboe for tone, or contrabassoon for range. I'd go the contrabassoon route.

Clarinet in C - only use it if you KNOW the person that'll play it for you. These are rarely decent instruments. Use a Bb clarinet or Eb at the discretion of the part. Yes, I know manufactureres make decent ones today. Damn good ones, too (Leblanc), but not many people bother with them. Why spend the money on a C clarinet that's designed to sound like a Bb clarinet just so you don't have to transpose old parts?

Bass Clarinet in A - never use it. Use the bass clarinet in Bb.

The C-F Sax family (except the C Melody Sax) - why would you WANT to use them when the Bb-Eb instruments are fine? You WILL run across the occasional C melody (or tenor in C), but it won't be used in an orchestra or wind band.

Natural horns were well covered by Gardener. *clap clap fellow horn player*

Double Descant Horn - you don't write for "Double descent horn". You simply write for "horn in F". If you know you are dealing with an experienced player that is willing to pull his descant horn out (if he has one), then feel free to be slightly more unforgiving in the higher register. I said "slightly." This is much like the "normal" double horn, but instead of being in F and Bb, it's in Bb and F alto. I wouldn't ask any higher than a high D or Eb if you have a horn player that can play up there, but I'm talking solo literature. Don't do it in an ensemble setting. It's essentially the same instrument as the normal horn as far as the composer is concerned, it just makes it easier to play high. So don't worry about it and treat it as your normal, average horn.

Trumpet in F (the old one, not the soprano) - why? ... just... why? Use a ... baritone, or if you can find one, bass trumpet. Best yet, use a Bb trumpet! Hurray!

Double Wagner-Tuba in Bb-F - Wagner Tuba in general are usually available on an orchestra by orchestra basis. Often the orchestra owns these instruments, not the horn players. Same with colleges - often the colleges with have a set of them for when they go to play Wagner music or something that calls for the instrument (Bruckner, etc.). Provided they fit in the budget. I don't know why they make double Wagner tuba... they don't really accomplish more. When scoring for these instruments, it's usually two tenor (Bb tuben) and two bass (F tuben). A "true" tenor wagner tuba plays well in the higher range. A true bass tuben plays fine in their lower range. The double model is sort of a compromise and doesn't play particularly well in either with the expensive of having both simply "available." So write for tenor or bass, not double - if any at all.

Ophicleide - just don't use it. Unless you know somebody that's willing to play one and CAN play it. I don't see any reason to use it, though. It's historic.

Many composers in the past have scored instruments that never existed and requested that they be built. The Wagner tuba and Heckelphone were two of the very few successful ventures down that road. Other ventures, such as the piccolo oboe and bass and lower oboes are the more common variety - where maybe a few were built, but the instruments never caught on. This is why you see scores calling for an alto flute in F or basset clarinets in G and D, or even Eb piccolo heckelphone. So basically, composers called for instruments before working versions were even built. Then people had to go and make them. XD In the case of the Eb piccolo heckelphone, Strauss decided, "Aw hell, this is taking too long... " and ended taking it out of the score by the time working instruments were made.

Why why why ?...

Curiosity

I can easily find a replacement for each of those instruments, I didn't post for that.

Some scores are still published with those rare instruments, why they don't fix that ? to keep the "original" notes of the composer ? ...

EDIT: I forgot to say that I'm not planing to score for any of those instruments... just wanted to know.

Well, the scores are still published like that because the editors want to leave musical decisions (such as if and how to replace certain instruments) to the conductors. Changing it would be quite a big interference with the musical content, and the general trend for music publishers these days seems to go more in the direction of trying to preserve the original composition (which can be hard enough when there are conflicting sources, which is often the case), to be not to mess with the actual content of the scores, but present them as authentically as feasible. Personally, I much prefer that to scores where you never know what's actually written by the composer, and what was "dumbed down" by editors with their subjective views on what is "practicable" and what isn't. (And possibly these editors were again just "improving" on other edited versions of the score, and not the actual source.)

There are even many instruments that were extinct for quite some time, but exist now again, thanks to the research around historical performance practice. The fact that today you can't expect an orchestra to have an ophicleide doesn't necessarily mean that will always be the case. So better just stay "neutral", keep the scores as they are, and let the conductors decide what to do with them.

(And it may even be helpful for the players to know what instrument their part was originally written for, since they might use that knowledge to try to produce a sound that comes a bit closer to the original.)

You mean, "how're you doing" or "how do you do". ;)

So, why are you interested in scoring for these instruments, anyways? What redeeming qualities do they have that are so profound over other instruments that it is worth the trouble? Also, are you proficient enough to effectively score with a standard orchestra anyways?

well first off, if you're on the note of correcting people, it's anyway not anyways ;)

also, he isn't scoring them he said he has seen scores for them.. which has peaked my curiosity of which scores you've seen with these instruments?

Why do you intend to write for instruments that are rare or dead?

Why do you intend to write for instruments that are rare or dead?

EDIT: I forgot to say that I'm not planing to score for any of those instruments... just wanted to know.

Also, of course, before your question is answered whether these instruments are rare/dead, you obviously don't know that they're rare or dead.

I was asking about this because if one of those instruments can be used ... is good to know