Pre-Orchestral Composing

Sorry for the awkward title. I've read in a couple of places that, especially in film music, an orchestrator other than the original composer is used to, well, orchestrate the piece. So I was wondering... For what instruments, then, does the composer himself normally write the piece to begin with?

I believe it tends to be a piano score or an orchestral reduction with, say, one stave each for winds, brass and strings. Depending on how specific the composer wants to get.

Some composers write a piano score, but that doesn't mean is a piece for piano.

Sometimes writing for piano is just a "faster" way to write ideas, ... some composer writes little indications within the piano score specifying the instruments (for the upcomming orchestration), indications like "Clarinets" above a melody, or "Trombones" in other part ....

The Composer didn't actually write for all the orchestra instruments but the music is pre-ready.

The Orchestrator creates the full, final score following the guide given by the composer, ....

If the Composer did create a full orchestral score, sometimes those orchestrators only make tiny modifications for a suitable fit in the scenes ....

"orchestrators" not only orchestrate a piano score, .... sometimes, within the edition of the movie (post-production) some parts need new music, and the orchestrator composes (or edit a previous music) to fit that musicless bridge.

In my opinion, write everything and leave nothing to the "orchestrator" ....

A normal size orchestra (inside and outside soundtracks) may have something like this:

3 Flutes (3rd doubling Piccolo)

3 Oboes (3rd Doubling English Horn)

3 Clarinets (3rd Doubling Bass-Clarinet)

2 Bassoons

Contrabassoon

4 Horns

3 Trumpets

3 Trombones

Tuba

Timpani

Percussions

Harp/Piano

Violins I

Violins II

Violas

Violincellos

Contrabasses

I find that if you are doing a piano score, and you are doing something even remotely complex, you could do a 3-stave grand staff. Top treble, middle either, bottom bass clefs. Stephen Sondheim does it ALL the time.

Yes, that's true..... the "sketches" may be is several staves, .... but Like I said.... better to write everything.....

Besides, I don't find writing in 2 or 3 staves "faster" than the complete orchestra sheet...

for me the "slow" part would be to "think the music"

While we're on the topic of composing for orchestra, there's something else I'd like to ask. I haven't personally written for an orchestra (yet), but suppose I did... That's an awful lot of instruments to write for. I assume one doesn't always use the whole lot of them. Which of these are generally used in most orchestral pieces?

Hmm, most composers I know work on a condensed score (3 staves, maybe 4 or 5) before writing the full score. I do too, so does my teacher and many others I know. That still means you do everything in the end, just only in a second step. But like that it's much quicker to do quick changes, add something, move something around, assign something to another instrument, whatever. Plus the harmonic and formal structure is very quickly readable like that, without having to read a huge score.

Of course that mainly applies to when you're writing by hand. With computer, it's a slightly (but not totally) different thing.

But there are of course also composers who work on the big score right away. It's a matter of your personal workflow.

While we're on the topic of composing for orchestra, there's something else I'd like to ask. I haven't personally written for an orchestra (yet), but suppose I did... That's an awful lot of instruments to write for. I assume one doesn't always use the whole lot of them. Which of these are generally used in most orchestral pieces?

Well, to tell the truth, all of them, give or take a few parts. If you are calling the group a full orchestra, then all you can do is lose parts. Looking at the list, I'd say drop 1 of each multi part. Drop Contrabassoon, and Tuba. Drop percussion and drop the keyboard. That is a minimal orchestra. You could write for chamber orchestra which is like strings, a trumpet, a horn, and 3 woodwinds.

Basically, you can write for any assortment of instruments you want. If you want to write for orchestra, then write for orchestra. If you don't want to many instruments, write for concert band, and you've dropped the strings. You can drop percussion if you like also. If you still don't want so many instruments, write for jazz band, and you've dropped most of the woodwinds, and you have saxes, and a clarinet and drums and piano and bass. If you still don't want so many, write for brass choir, or wind quintet, or jazz combo which is drums, bass, piano at least. If you still don't want as many, write an instrument solo with piano accompaniment. If it's still to much, write for a solo instrument. If it's still to much, just do vocal improv, lol. :toothygrin:

The composer is in control. You have the say in what you write for. I've seen a suite for the entire string section and a timpani and 1 trumpet and 1 oboe. It was weird, but it got performed and people clapped when it was over. It's really that free of a choice...

That's an awful lot of instruments to write for. I assume one doesn't always use the whole lot of them. Which of these are generally used in most orchestral pieces?

No, one doesn't always use all of them for an entire work, this would get quite tiresome. There is no "general" or "standard" (and you shouldn't think in that way either), just orchestrational preferences that vary from composer to composer.

I'd say study scores. Look at the orchestrations of Mozart or Beethoven, look at what Berlioz and Brahms did, check out Wagner and Mahler, as well as Berg and Webern. Also check out Lachenmann and Carter. Orchestrating is, I guess, in a way like painting (perhaps kind of like using a coloring book?), you're adding your colors to the pitches.

That being said, definitely settle on a set list of instrument for your orchestra before you start to compose. Going in with just a melodic or harmonic idea usually doesn't work out so well. A lot of being a composer is about is composing for specific instruments, not just writing a melody.

But there are of course also composers who work on the big score right away. It's a matter of your personal workflow.

That's me! :toothygrin:

I like to have my entire color palate laid out in front of me as I compose (but you are right, it does get kind of cumbersome after about 5 pages and only 20ish measures!); I think a lot in timbre as I put down my pitches. I guess that comes from all that klangfarbenmelodie which I love so much!

While we're on the topic of composing for orchestra, there's something else I'd like to ask. I haven't personally written for an orchestra (yet), but suppose I did... That's an awful lot of instruments to write for. I assume one doesn't always use the whole lot of them. Which of these are generally used in most orchestral pieces?

To be perfectly honest, if you need to ask these questions, you're not ready to compose for orchestra. You have a lot of technique and knowledge you need to pick up first.

I too share this sentiment. A lot of people seem to just jump right into a large piece without having developed the skills they need first. These pieces don't ever seem to work out. I've been composing for a little while now, several years, I've composed a good number of works. I just wrote my first orchestral piece (and it wasn't even a full orchestra, just a chamber orchestra of 21 players!) a few months ago.

It is not something one should jump right into.

MidiKareshi:

I think what you need right now is to get some orchestral scores and study them (no matter if they're not soundtracks) .... get some works that you also have in recording, ... study those for a while and you'll learn more than posting questions or what we can tell you.....

YOu can get some here:

Category:Composers - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music

Maybe you should try with non large orchestra scores like Beethoven, Brahms, Dvorak, something like that .... then perhaps the large ones, Mahler, R.Strauss, Scriabin ....

Thank you for your many interesting comments, folks.

After reading Flint and charliep123's posts, I feel I need to clarify something. I wasn't actually asking this question with the intention of writing for orchestra. As things stand, I exclusively compose electronic music, and I am in fact quite comfortable with this "genre". I do, however, listen to some orchestral music for inspiration (mostly film). My question was the simple result of curiosity.

That said, I've found your responses very helpful thus far. :)