Weekly Discussion - Classical Discoveries Radio

One morning I wandered into the Shoutbox and people were talking about something rather actively (and pleasantly for once) and of course I went "Huh?" and got a link tossed at me. The link was this:

:: ON THE AIR :: WPRB.com, Current Playlist

WPRB princeton radio hosts a variety of shows, and particularly from 5:30 to 11:00 AM EST (GMT -4) on every Wednesday is the show "Classical Discoveries" hosted by Marvin Rosen. The program is devoted to little known repertoire of all musical periods with an emphasis on the old and the new. So the aim is mostly exposing listeners to music they've likely not heard before, with most of the air time being devoted to contemporary works, a good time devoted to baroque era and early music works, and the occasional selections from the time periods in between, hence "emphasis on the old and the new."

From 11:00 AM (EST) to 15:00 (3 PM), Classical Discoveries "Goes Avant Garde" and plays all contemporary music, still, with emphasis on the music that the listeners are likely not to have heard before. So in effect, the whole show lasts over 8 hours, from 5:30 to 15:00 EST. The past two weeks we've gathered a good few people that happened to be strolling by and had some pleasant discussion in the shoutbox about the pieces as we listened to them on the live feed in real time. We were thinking of advertising this program as sort of a discussion/chat schedule, for people to come and listen and talk about the music together. I asked for a more proper presentation of the idea so I could PM the admins, but some of the final words prompted me to just post it here for the community to see.

James' date='

As I was saying in the Shoutbox, making this weekly discussion a more permanent, publicized, or "official" fixture on YC might be a really great idea. I think the forum could greatly benefit from listening to the program while being able to discuss it with other members. Not only will it introduce members to music they wouldn't normally be exposed to, whether its a madrigal from the Renaissance or a concerto for computer and orchestra from 20 years ago, building their knowledge of the music out there, but it'll allow users to discuss repertoire that each has heard (and fairly recently) in real time -- it'll help people be able to identify certain things upon listening (without re-listening or consulting a score, building their ear) and allow them to ask questions to others if they're curious about something (building their knowledge), and it'll allow people to discuss their immediate responses/reactions to a piece (fostering an ability to express musical opinions and form valid criticisms upon an initial hearing). Plus its community building activity.

Now the discussions can be organized, with a moderator and some kind of general prompt questions (it'd be hard to really have set questions, unless we could get a playlist before hand, he does put up, prior to Wednesdays, some of the larger pieces he's going to play -- the highlights of the program -- so maybe there could be some specifics based on that) or it could be similar to how it has been, just "here's the link, we're all listening, comment as you see fit". But I think with some more exposure we can get people to participate. I mean, I put the link up for the first time (I think it was last week) and we had a number of people chatting in the shoutbox about it. Similar thing today, the problem is, though, without people knowing about it, we only can get those who happened to have stumbled into the shoutbox to participate.

So we could actually set some kind of chat up in a chatroom or we could continue to do it in the shoutbox. But I think its something that would be good for a lot of the composers on this site. I think some of the composers here (especially the younger ones -- 15ish?) might be limited in their knowledge of what's out there or the ability (financially, etc.) to expand their knowledge outside of, say, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, Mozart, Bach, etc. If they're on the forum, they have access to a computer, so they have access to the program. They might not be able to keep buying CDs to hear different music, but they will be still be able to be exposed to different music, via this program.

Also, there is no reason why this program has to be the only program used. This kind of thing -- this group listening and discussion -- could be done with other programs as well.

Maybe we could start a thread to see if people would be interested, maybe we could just publicize it and see who shows up. Either way, I think trying to get people into this would be very positive step for the forum.

These past few weeks have, despite the fact that its not been any kind of set thing, seen quite a few members participating throughout the program, so I think if it became a set thing that users were told about a pretty good number of members would participate.[/quote']

Absolutely a wonderful idea! I will support this 100%.

I will be there as well, if I can. Discovered today. Although people need to know they have to be patience. (I know I'm not) But good aligned questions can guide the hearing, and make it an horizon-broadening (to use this ugly cliche) experience.

It would be great to hear what you guys think. Those of you that support this idea, how would you like to see it implemented -- a chatroom, in the shoutbox? Would you prefer a "free-for-all" or a more structured chat?

What do ya' think? Any suggestions would be quite helpful and will greatly benefit us in trying to put this together and you guys in the way it'll work!

Absolutely a wonderful idea! I will support this 100%.

Wonderful! I'm looking forward to discussing with you!

I will be there as well, if I can. Discovered today. Although people need to know they have to be patience. (I know I'm not) But good aligned questions can guide the hearing, and make it an horizon-broadening (to use this ugly cliche) experience.

Great, I think we had a good time today. Its true, you do need to be patient. Sometimes the pieces aren't always the best or at least they don't always fit everyone aesthetics. However listening to, forming opinions on and expressing those opinions in a logical, clear, and non-dismissive manor (especially while siting specific musical reasons) is just as important as being able to express your opinions on those pieces that you like. Plus being able to express both sides of your aesthetics will help others get to know your musical language better!

I know James isn't the most avid listener of "avant-garde" music, however we've been listening the past couple of weeks -- even though, after 11, it isn't always his "cup of tea", he still listens, expanding his knowledge and adding a lot to the conversation! (And I know he's been introduced to some stuff that he's enjoyed on there that he probably wouldn't have heard otherwise ;))

It would be great to hear what you guys think. Those of you that support this idea, how would you like to see it implemented -- a chatroom, in the shoutbox? Would you prefer a "free-for-all" or a more structured chat?

Free-for-all, or structured? I'm more for the former, though I think we should always have a moderator or two around. I think to structure it would be too much effort into a simple thing - structure is boring sometimes, limiting. The idea is we just chill, listen, and chitchat.

All we really need to do is put a time schedule above the shoutbox, have a few moderators watch the shoutbox (you are able to temporarily ban people if they go off topic), and let the fun begin. This would be better in a chatroom since you can see who joined etc, but right now our chatroom is lame. So I am for the idea of hosting these in the shoutbox for now. Moderators must keep an eye on the shoutbox (during these times) to make sure people stay on topic, otherwise this will not work.

Chopin is considered basing this in the Flash Chat module we have on the site - though I rather would like it in the Shoutbox. For only a few reasons - it's easy to access and we're all used to it. Since the Shoutbox is at the top of the forum index, people are more likely to stumble upon the conversations and contribute - almost nobody pays any attention to what's going on in the Chat. Honestly, I don't think I even like the Chat - it's on another page, for one, and the Shoutbox is a firmly planted edifice in YC culture - always present at the heart of the whole forum/site.

Free-for-all, or structured? I'm more for the former, though I think we should always have a moderator or two around. I think to structure it would be too much effort into a simple thing - structure is boring sometimes, limiting. The idea is we just chill, listen, and chitchat.

James, I think the Flash Chat would be alright -- I don't necessarily want to take up the Shoutbox if others want to use it. I agree with all of your reasons for wanting to use it though, however if a link could be provided to the chat toward the top of the page, it might work out? I've never used that chat so I don't know what its like. Plus we should take what we can get -- if we're going to be given the chatroom exclusively for discussion, I think that might be for the best.

I agree with you completely about the structure. But I think some way (perhaps a "sticky thread" -- that's what they're called right?) of providing information on some of the upcoming pieces might be beneficial.

For example on his site it says (and this is yesterdays info):

This Wednesday, July 22, 2009 from 5:30 till 11:00

featured will be:

Fred Jonny Berg (Norway, 1973-)

Flute Mystery for Flute and Orchestra (2005)

Franghiskos Leontaritis (Greece, 1518-1572)

Missa "Je Prens En Grez"

Daniel Bernard Roumain (DBR)(United States, 1971- )

Volvic Martim for Piano Trio (2006)

Kile Smith (United States)

Vespers for Choir and Renaissance Band - World Premiere Broadcast of Entire Work

Mikis Theodorakis (Greece, 1925- )

The Raven for Voice and Orchestra

This Wednesday, July 22, 2009 from 11:00 till 15:00

"CLASSICAL DISCOVERIES GOES AVANT-GARDE"

featured will be:

John Melby (United States, 1941- )

Concerto for Computer and Orchestra

Krzysztof Penderecki (Poland, 1933-)

Actions for Free Jazz Orchestra

At 12:30 until 15:00 Marvin will be joined by

New York Composer Elodie Lauten

Featured will be the World Premiere Broadcast of "The Two-Cents Opera"

So, once we know what will be featured, we can post links to information on the composers and compositions (when possible) a few days before Wednesdays as a way for participants to be familiar with some things (compositional styles and ideas/musical languages, composers and their works, etc.) before going in. I think a combination of Wiki pages, composer's websites, and JSTOR (or other "scholarly" sources) would be a nice addition (basically whatever info we can get). I mean, as long as people would want to read up a bit beforehand. I'm willing to find the info if people are willing to read it.

EDIT:

All we really need to do is put a time schedule above the shoutbox, have a few moderators watch the shoutbox (you are able to temporarily ban people if they go off topic), and let the fun begin. This would be better in a chatroom since you can see who joined etc, but right now our chatroom is lame. So I am for the idea of hosting these in the shoutbox for now. Moderators must keep an eye on the shoutbox (during these times) to make sure people stay on topic, otherwise this will not work.

Well, I think that takes care of that. :D Thanks Chopin!

So, once we know what will be featured, we can post links to information on the composers and compositions (when possible) a few days before Wednesdays as a way for participants to be familiar with some things (compositional styles and ideas/musical languages, composers and their works, etc.) before going in. I think a combination of Wiki pages, composer's websites, and JSTOR (or other "scholarly" sources) would be a nice addition (basically whatever info we can get). I mean, as long as people would want to read up a bit beforehand. I'm willing to find the info if people are willing to read it.

I definitely like this idea and I think we should give it a shot. We could even build a portal page on our wiki dedicated to this radio station if it continues to spark interest. I contacted the host of the station so that I could get more information about it. It is run in Princeton, NJ which is fairly close to where I live actually :P

I definitely like this idea and I think we should give it a shot. We could even build a portal page on our wiki dedicated to this radio station if it continues to spark interest. I contacted the host of the station so that I could get more information about it. It is run in Princeton, NJ which is fairly close to where I live actually :P

Yeah, I mean posting information is a good way to get some people exposed to more advanced theory and used to reading analyses, more academic articles, etc. Its something I think is quite important in developing as a composer. Listening and writing is one thing, but understanding on a theoretical level is also quite important, as it teaches us to take things apart, understand why we like them, and as a result, grow as composers.

The idea here would be to post anything that might help -- bios, simple explanations of things (like a quick simple overview of the 12-tone system, for example), to more advanced and in-depth discussions of things like isorhythmic ideas in Medieval music, the use of chromaticism in the music of Gesualdo and Marenzio, or transpositional combinations of beat-class sets in Steve Reich's phase-shifting music (of course these are examples, things that are posted will be related to the programming).

I think the key would be to offer "basic" as well as "advanced" information so that people of different levels all have something to keep them interested. Not everyone wants to read another basic article that says something like "Ligeti used tone clusters and timbres to imitate electronic music in his sound masses", just like some might not have enough understanding (yet) to read Jonathan W. Bernard's Voice Leading as Spatial Function in the Music of Ligeti. But providing both ends of the spectrum will make that info available to everyone. So if someone does want to check out a more detailed article or something, they're more than welcome to (plus they'll have others to ask questions to!). I think it might foster and encourage intellectual growth. And again, make us all better composers.

P.S. - Princeton is fairly close to me as well, it's how I knew about the station! :D

I really like your ideas Charlie, and I think the wiki would be great for something like this (rather than posting the articles in the forum). At this moment, I'm not exactly sure how Young Composers can work with this radio station, but I am going to be chatting with the host this weekend to find out more about this station he runs. I can get a better grasp on things once I understand his goals. If anything, we can start out by just tuning in every week and having these weekly discussions and see where it goes from there. We can start out discussions in the shoutbox, but if this really works out, we'd put these discussions in a dedicated chatroom. This is so that we can track progress, and it would give me a better idea about adding this feature as a major part of the site, or not.

I really like your ideas Charlie, and I think the wiki would be great for something like this (rather than posting the articles in the forum). At this moment, I'm not exactly sure how Young Composers can work with this radio station, but I am going to be chatting with the host this weekend to find out more about this station he runs. I can get a better grasp on things once I understand his goals. If anything, we can start out by just tuning in every week and having these weekly discussions and see where it goes from there. We can start out discussions in the shoutbox, but if this really works out, we'd put these discussions in a dedicated chatroom. This is so that we can track progress, and it would give me a better idea about adding this feature as a major part of the site, or not.

Well thanks, I'm happy to provide them!

Wherever the articles are, I really think they'd be useful. And as I said I'd be happy to search for information to either link, or shape into an a page on the Wiki (though it may be difficult to pull together a bunch of pages before each Wednesday). I think there should be some way of letting participants know that new information is up for the upcoming program, though.

I'm really happy to see that this idea is taking off a bit and I'm excited to see what will happen with it. I really think that it will have a really positive impact on the forum.

I hope your chat with Mr. Rosen goes well!

I think this is a great idea because all of our "chat sessions" have failed in the past, and maybe this would be the ice breaker so that we can finally move to a more sophisticated way of chatting on this site (rather than just using it for idle chat).

We can easily put a link on the shoutbox directing everyone to the wiki pages, that's not a problem. I'd need to know where you are getting the information from though. We do not copy information to the wiki from other sources, (we paraphrase everything and use our own knowledge to construct pages). So maybe it would be better to link to the document. Once I get a better understanding of this, we'll think of something.

I'd need to know where you are getting the information from though. We do not copy information to the wiki from other sources, (we paraphrase everything and use our own knowledge to construct pages). So maybe it would be better to link to the document. Once I get a better understanding of this, we'll think of something.

Well, my plan was to link to information. So if we look at yesterday's list -- say I'm going to provide information on John Melby and Krzysztof Penderecki. As you might be able to tell already, there's going to be much more information on some composers than others.

But for Melby, I would link his website. There's not a whole lot of information on Melby, so I would possibly link some articles he's written, as well as Elliott Schwartz's Stars, Stripes, Batons and Circuits: American Music For Orchestra and Electronics, since it gives some background to the piece that was played, Melby's Concerto for Computer and Orchestra (which also happens to be mentioned in the article).

For Penderecki I would possibly give his Britannica article, and maybe his Wikipedia page. I was also planning to provide links to articles on JSTOR, such as To Cut the Gordian Knot: The Timbre System of Krzysztof Penderecki by Danuta Mirka (though not everyone has access to JSTOR) and other articles like Krzysztof Penderecki's Polymorphia and Fluorescences by Peggy Monastra. And, because many of his works are serial (Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima, for example), I may link articles on integral serialism and 12-tone technique. I might have also linked articles on free jazz since the piece played was for "free jazz ensemble".

Things like that.

Unfortunately we can't post PDFs of the articles, so not everyone will be able to get to everything (mostly JSTOR stuff). But I will try to find as many articles with links as possible so that they can be accessed by anyone.

I hope that gives you a better idea of what I was thinking in terms of providing info. Basically a bibliography for participants to peruse.

That makes sense. We can get our wiki editors involved and put up a wiki schedule page containing all of the links to the articles found. And we can then link everyone to the articles on the wiki by putting a link above the shoutbox for now. Then when the time comes, we can have a discussion about the works that were broadcast. The problem with chat, is that there will be no evidence that discussions took place, unless we save these chat sessions.

Yeah, I that is a great idea -- I think organizing a Wiki page by program date (the playlist on the show's site could possibly be linked) then subject would be a nice way to do it.

But the links would definitely need to be provided prior to the broadcast of the show, that way people will have the information already (again though, there is no pressure to read anything) and be able to discuss the pieces as they air with that knowledge.

I hadn't really thought about saving the chat -- I was just assuming it would be a free flowing convo. Would you want to save the chat? For what purpose? I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused about why thats an issue.

Saving the chat is not really an "issue" but we may want to post the chat logs next to the program, just so that there is a weekly history of the sessions. If this is going to be intellectual conversation, I think saving the sessions would be beneficial to those who may want to read through the various analyses and opinions of the repertoire of the week. This intellectual property may actually help promote these chat sessions in the future. If this happens, the audience of the radio station grows, and this increased audience will encourage people to submit their works to be played on this station. In effect, this act could prove to grow the station, and listeners at the same time.

That is my theory at least :P I don't really know much about the host of this station yet.

Ah, okay. I see your point. Actually I think that's a pretty good idea. The only problem is that it is possible that some users may be apprehensive about something like that. Or maybe not, I don't really know. I think a decisions like that might be best left up to the participants in the chat though.

Is there any way to log the Shoutbox?

The Shoutbox is logged as it is, as far as I understand - it just clears every 48 hours or something to that effect. About saving Chat sessions - I really don't see the point, simply because... who's going to read through all that? The fact that you can't read the logs will make you want to tune into the next one and experience it in real time. I don't see a use for keeping logs.

Using our Wiki for week-by-week info pages is a great idea. We could have a dedicated portal and namespace for these radio events, and it would contain articles like "Classical Discoveries 7-22-09" the articles would have the information like charlie pulled off Marvin's site and people could add links to information they find across the web so people could visit the page and read some articles. Info that not everybody can get (like those paid subscription sites) it'd be nice to maybe copy small, essential excerpts onto our Wiki. Obviously not much, since I'm sure it's copy-righted, but perhaps a paragraph here or there. That said, members could discuss the reading with each other (if they feel like it) on the talk page thread.

I don't really know enough about forum administration to tell, but is it possible to have a second shoutbox below the normal one that only appears at specific times? That way people could still use the normal shoutbox as always and the second one would be clearly reserved for a specific topic (such as this one), making it less likely that random people stumble in with off-topic babbling. On the other hand, it might be troublesome to set up and might confuse some people, no idea.

Anyways, I really like the idea.

Personally I think it's better to cram it into one Shoutbox, even if two were possible. More likely to collect passerby that way. :shifty:

It's not that hard to reserve some time for a good reason - if people want to come in and chat about whatever else, they'll probably get overwhelmed and assimilate or leave anyways.

If we want, (and I already brought this up to a few of the other guys during the princeton show yesterday morning), but my local classical station (KUSC.org out of University of Southern California) has a 2 hour show devoted to new music on saturday nights at 10pm (22:00) pacific time. Thhe emphasis is on new composers moreso than the generally well known composers, at least from my experience listening. The time period is the last 75 years. And I've heard electronic music there, as well as unconventional instrument groupings, etc. Always something new and interesting, and sometimes, lesser known works from composers that are familiar.

I understand if you want to focus on 1 stream, and 1 chat/shout session a week, but if you wish, this is another possibility if you wish to have multiple sessions per week. And this being saturday night, it would almost exactly split the week in half between the Princeton show.

If we want, (and I already brought this up to a few of the other guys during the princeton show yesterday morning), but my local classical station (KUSC.org out of University of Southern California) has a 2 hour show devoted to new music on saturday nights at 10pm (22:00) pacific time. Thhe emphasis is on new composers moreso than the generally well known composers, at least from my experience listening. The time period is the last 75 years. And I've heard electronic music there, as well as unconventional instrument groupings, etc. Always something new and interesting, and sometimes, lesser known works from composers that are familiar.

I understand if you want to focus on 1 stream, and 1 chat/shout session a week, but if you wish, this is another possibility if you wish to have multiple sessions per week. And this being saturday night, it would almost exactly split the week in half between the Princeton show.

I think this is a good idea! Thank you!

I've said before that this would work with multiple programs. The reason that Classical Discoveries works so well is because its all "unheard" music from different periods and it's already proven to be a good program to get people interested as we've had a couple of successful "unofficial" discussions. But so long as this program is streamed online, and you can provide a link, I think it would work too.

Plus I like the idea of having a chat twice a week (almost) evenly spaced.

I think for now, however, we should probably see if this takes off (and I'm pretty sure it will) before more programs/group listenings are added, but I definitely would love to see it expand to include more programs.

I would love to get the link and check out the program.

Programs

Above is the program listing of the entire website/radio channel. The show is called "Modern Times" about halfway down the page, with a small description. I know for sure that they do read all emails that are sent to them, if you wish to talk to them more about it.

The live stream for this site can be found in the upper left hand corner under the "Playlist" and "Program" drop-down menus. It's a big maroon button that says 'Listen Now". It can run on 4 different media players, each of which has 2 different speeds. Pick and choose. It's very similar to the princeton station, in that it's run independently by a university, and it's funded by donations.

OMWBWAY, thanks for the link, I'll check it out if I can. As I said before, I think it would be best to see how this idea plays out before adding more programs. Also, since Classical Discoveries and Modern Times have a lot of emphasis on new music (though Classical Discoveries, also does "old" music), if this were to expand, while I like the idea of emphasizing new music (especially since everyone, regardless of style, is writing new music!), I think it would be just as important to include a show/discussion of maybe Romantic and Classical music as well -- I would like the emphasis to be on works that participants haven't heard, but there is no reason why we couldn't eventually include a "Classics" discussion as well, its just as important to discuss and dissect Beethoven's Op. 131 or Mozart's Jupiter Symphony as it is to discuss Fujikura's Fifth Station or Wyschnegradsky's 24 Preludes, Op. 22. But for just starting out, I would like to use these programs to expand knowledge of what's out there.

The only problem I foresee with the program you've provide is the time. It's on rather late for some of us (though not all of us). I, personally, probably would not be able to participate during that broadcast, but if others would be willing to do work for that show that I've been/plan on doing for Classical Discoveries (i.e., gathering information for participants to see beforehand, being a kind of moderator, etc.) it might work out.

It's very similar to the princeton station, in that it's run independently by a university, and it's funded by donations.

It seems that, now-a-days, the best programs (especially for concert music) are on college radio stations.

OMWBWAY

It seems that, now-a-days, the best programs (especially for concert music) are on college radio stations.

It seems that stations independently run and supported by donations are the only ones that can survive in a world where corporate funds don't care about the arts. Sadly.

And yes, I understand the time is a bit late. I'm an insomniac. When I was listening to Classical Discoveries and even a bit of the Avante-Garde show, I had not slept yet. I'm on Pacific time, the AVante-Garde was 8 am for me. I went to sleep "for the night" after listening. Worth it? Absolutely. It was extremely fun and enjoyable to listen to the new music and discuss with you and the couple other folks. I still hate baroque woodwinds, and love the sacbut. :thumbsup: