Is melody anything worth in modern art music?

Listening to the latest pieces which win the composition contests here in Austria makes me quite sad. It seems to me that most somewhat successful composers aren't remotely interested in the melodic aspect of music, most new music here is very comparable to Lachenmann. I have nothing against Lachenmann but I'm getting tired of most composers favoured by the academics composing in such a style. Some composers even admitted in interviews that they don't like melodic music. Also Esa-Pekka Salonen said,that he was taught in composition lessons that modern music should avoid melody and that he adhered to these rules in his early career.

Really sad to me, since I consider the art of creating unique and memorable melodies to be one of the greatest challenges in composition.

Who initiated this mentality and how did it develop? Any thoughts on that?

Do you think that there will be changes in the future?

(the situation might be different in America,but that's what it's like in europe)

its not so different in america but i might be wrong.Lately all i hear is going toward Atonal Effects and in my personal opinion, composers reject melody based music because they themselves lack it. if they had a small glimbs of it it, they wouldn't reject it. but i do believe that it will come. an entirely New melodic form of music that will be very exciting. so don't give up.

its like we need Mozart and Beethoven back to balance things out :D

Some composers even admitted in interviews that they don't like melodic music.

Don't assume that what YOU like is what anyone else likes; Don't assume that anyone else lives to please YOU.

If you want more melody in new music, write it yourself. And for goodness' sake, stop whining about something you have no control over.

I second what Flint says.

And atonalism is nothing new, for your information

Lately all i hear is going toward Atonal Effects and in my personal opinion, composers reject melody based music because they themselves lack it. if they had a small glimbs of it it, they wouldn't reject it. but i do believe that it will come. an entirely New melodic form of music that will be very exciting. so don't give up.

Atonalism is not something that is the product of contemporary times... it's been around for almost a hundred years.

...in my personal opinion, composers reject melody based music because they themselves lack it. if they had a small glimbs [sic] of it it, they wouldn't reject it...

'Melody' does not take one form. Just because you don't understand how melody works in non-common practice music, doesn't mean that it's not there. This only points out your ignorance of modern music, form, and style. You may want to re-think trumpeting your lack of understanding as a 'virtue'.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got some originality to produce. Don't have time for piss-poor copies of dead-mens' work.

Wow, way to project your own (ill-informed) opinions onto others' works...

'Melody' does not take one form. Just because you don't understand how melody works in non-common practice music, doesn't mean that it's not there. This only points out your ignorance of modern music, form, and style. You may want to re-think trumpeting your lack of understanding as a 'virtue'.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got some originality to produce. Don't have time for piss-poor copies of dead-mens' work.

My sentiments exactly.

I second what Flint says.

And atonalism is nothing new, for your information

Atonalism is not something that is the product of contemporary times... it's been around for almost a hundred years.

i understand but compared to today's work. even Schoenberg sounds like a great melodic person. Stravinsky and Schoenberg did it with style and emotions and i promise you, with purpose.

i understand but compared to today's work. even Schoenberg sounds like a great melodic person. Stravinsky and Schoenberg did it with style and emotions and i promise you, with purpose.

Clearly you people haven't actually listened to the music you're talking about.

WOW, different people have different tastes in music!?!?!?!

HOW CAN THIS BE?!

Wow, way to project your own (ill-informed) opinions onto others' works...

'Melody' does not take one form. Just because you don't understand how melody works in non-common practice music, doesn't mean that it's not there. This only points out your ignorance of modern music, form, and style. You may want to re-think trumpeting your lack of understanding as a 'virtue'.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got some originality to produce. Don't have time for piss-poor copies of dead-mens' work.

There is no need for the harsh Comment. i said it was in my personal opinion and I'm not ill informed. i just came to reject this noise like music. just like what Lachenmann does. its shouldn't be called music. its Child playing.

I also did not claim that just because you lack melodies doesn't mean you are not good at what you do, you might just be a master of whatever style you choose. But i truly think modern music and that is of all styles, do still appreciate the good old catchy melody with clever beat/orchestration. its in us all.

I personally am old fashioned and enjoy a melody and a climax and some clever orchestration going on.

I look forward to your originality.

sherief

Atonal music has been around for about 100 years and started taking on popularity with the composers of the second Viennese school. Yes atonal music gained popularity and is still a fixture in today's contemporary music, however it never made tonal music less popular. I have heard that in Europe that the school of thinking still does favor atonal but in America, both have lived in harmony for a long time. Atonal composer such as Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern composed there music around the time tonal composers such as Copland, Bernstein, Gershwin, and other were composing, and these composers also dabbled in other styles as well, some switching to atonal and vise versa.

Even today, both are still here, and it looks like both are going to stay. Composers such as Jonathan Harvey, Gy

Clearly you people haven't actually listened to the music you're talking about.

Yes i have and i went through many rehearsals specifically of Stravinsky. and i respect Stravinsky. I've Come to realize his music works perfect for visual action. in fact, without it, film music wouldn't have come so far.

Personally, now a days, I see a lot more pop-based classical music. And, I think it has to do with cultural evolution. For instance, Whitacre's melody lines can be described as the rock pieces of choral music. Ricky Ian Gordon uses pop syncopation in almost every measure. Leonard Bernstein gathers from the Jazz and modern music element to create a listenable-yet-original melody basis. Stephen Sondheim's melodies are somewhat based on popular idiom... Yet one thing these guys have in common, they strive to make music listenable.

In our 20th century dealings, vocal composers underwent a musical revolution and wrote atonal vocal works and such which have carried over to our times of tonal yet stretched mentality.

21st century vocal music (which includes the latter part of the 20th century), at least, isn't ALL atonal and melody is still important.

But understand this... Most melodies by composers of Broadway musicals have the Sondheimian philosophy: it should be sung as it would be spoken. Keepng that in mind, the melodies are often rhythmically challenging and not very conjunct, but they are pleasing to the ear most of the time.

I am only trying to say that not ALL modern music is disregarding of melody, although some of it is.

Just because Lachenmann was brought up: I actually find a lot of his music quite "melodic", even though of course not in the sense of a 19th century melody. More in the sense of a more linearly oriented musical structure, in contrast to the often highly pointillistic and disjointed structures of a lot of 1950s music (be that the early serialist pieces of Boulez or many of Cage's aleatoric compositions). And he's certainly not alone with this - there's a lot of contemporary music that focused on very linear processes, sometimes even accompanied by notions of "beauty", elegance, ornaments, and clearly audible gestures, which are all traits that are commonly associated with the term "melody". So really, before you say that there's rarely any melody in contemporary music, you should first think about how you actually define melody.

Personally, I love melodies, and I definitely don't mind if they appear in my compositions, even in a very traditional sense (although usually not "tonal"). And even where they don't appear so strictly, I often tend to think in very linear structures. Not always though. And I don't think this is a criterion of quality in music in the least.

And really, if the call is "we need Mozart and Beethoven back", I think we're limiting our notions of "melody" quite a lot… Not even to mention that to me most of Beethoven's best music doesn't really really lay a focus on interesting melodies in the first place. Using Beethoven as a benchmark for good melodies is like using Bach as an example for awesome orchestration. :P

(And with that I don't mean that either of those are bad, just that they're not the most striking qualities of said composers.)

Know you Musical History Kids

2/3rds of your "atonal composers of today" are dead. The other 1/3rd you cited as also being tonal. Also, "atonal music" caught on before the Second Viennese School.

Ti just came to reject this noise like music. just like what Lachenmann does. its shouldn't be called music. its Child playing.

I'm just going to second my own previous comment.

2/3rds of your "atonal composers of today" are dead. The other 1/3rd you cited as also being tonal. Also, "atonal music" caught on before the Second Viennese School.

I'm just going to second my own previous comment.

Most of them died recently (like 2006 and 2007) so I still count them because most of them were composing music in your life time and yes I know atonal music caught on before the second viennese school. I cite them because they had a large impact on why atonal music became as popular as it is.

WOW, different people have different tastes in music!?!?!?!

HOW CAN THIS BE?!

this

I'm just going to second my own previous comment.

Well i thought you were talking about the good old masters. ok you got me. when i got introduced to Lachenmann. i went to....youtube... and took a listen to whatever came. and turned it off immediately. that was awhile ago. my comment was specifically on his experimental atonal orchestra that he was doing. if he did write melodic music. good for him, i did not have the opportunity to listen. care to introduce it?

Most of them died recently (like 2006 and 2007) so I still count them because most of them were composing music in your life time and yes I know atonal music caught on before the second viennese school. I cite them because they had a large impact on why atonal music became as popular as it is.

Eh, I still don't agree with you completely on that.

Also, Ligeti died in 2006, his last work was written in 2001. Berio wrote his last piece and died in 2003. Harvey hasn't had a piece since 2004 I think? I'd say there are some better and more recent choices there. But whatevs.

when i got introduced to Lachenmann. i went to....youtube... and took a listen to whatever came. and turned it off immediately. that was awhile ago. my comment was specifically on his experimental atonal orchestra that he was doing. if he did write melodic music. good for him, i did not have the opportunity to listen. care to introduce it?

I'm not aware of a single Lachenmann work in existence that isn't melodic.

I'm not aware of a single Lachenmann work in existence that isn't melodic.

Really?

YouTube - Mouvement (1982) by Helmut Lachenmann [1/3]

and here is him talking about scratch and noise.

I also did not claim that just because you lack melodies doesn't mean you are not good at what you do, you might just be a master of whatever style you choose. But i truly think modern music and that is of all styles, do still appreciate the good old catchy melody with clever beat/orchestration. its in us all.

I personally am old fashioned and enjoy a melody and a climax and some clever orchestration going on.

Really?

<---what the heck is that?

YouTube - Mouvement (1982) by Helmut Lachenmann [1/3]

and here is him talking about scratch and noise.

YouTube - Mozart - Requiem - Dies irae - 3 (Day of wrath) <--- What the heck is that?

Yuck.

:laugh: SSC

...

I wonder if anyone has realized yet that melody comes in many shapes and forms.... perhaps it's lacking in tonal-centre... perhaps it has no rhythm...perhaps it has nothing BUT rhythm...

...

:whistling:

Stravinsky ain't atonal until the 50's.

This is kind of like someone kvetching about Free Jazz now....

i understand but compared to today's work. even Schoenberg sounds like a great melodic person. Stravinsky and Schoenberg did it with style and emotions and i promise you, with purpose.

Just to be clear, Rite of Spring is not atonal. Far from it. In fact, nothing Stravinsky wrote was atonal before the 50s and I sincerely doubt you're referring to any of those pieces.