Wozzeck

i have a book , and the size like a bible , What is it ? a opera , a opera from berg -wozzeck , however , i want to study it without a proper paths to understand it , would you mind to tell what skill it used on this piece

for example 12-tone ...

dark

I find it's much easier to understand Berg through the smaller motifs, analyzing the larger structure based on how the ideas germinate in his works. Many of his lines are 12-tone, but Berg makes subtle adjustments to eliminate the row... often sidesteps the 12-tone line with some repeated note, so trying to approach Berg from a 12-tone analytical approach often becomes much more frustrating. The Violin Concerto is particularly crazy-difficult to analyze in 12-tone rows, but both the Concerto and Wozzeck have plenty of ideas that are pretty much simple structures that build into larger, more complex structures.

I find it's much easier to understand Berg through the smaller motifs, analyzing the larger structure based on how the ideas germinate in his works. [...] [T]rying to approach Berg from a 12-tone analytical approach often becomes much more frustrating.

First of all, the reason that trying to approach Wozzeck from a 12-tone analytical approach becomes frustrating is because Wozzeck was not written using the 12-tone system. It's freely "atonal". Of his two operas, Lulu is the only one that uses a tone row. And, if I'm not mistaken, Schoenberg hadn't developed the 12-tone system until around 1923 and Wozzeck was completed in 1921 or '22. Yes it uses some serial ideas (such as inversions of motives), but it is not a serial composition.

I guess it's right to say "look for the leitmotifs", but lets be serious, if its post-Wagner, I think we all know they're going to be there. Unless you mean something more like how he uses symbolism in his pitch and timbral materials -- for example the "text painting" and more "onomatopoeic" effects that he uses throughout the opera; the alternating chords at the end of the opera, the use of the out-of-tune piano in the brothel, the ascending notes as Wozzeck dies (which, by the way is taken directly from Schoenberg's Erwartung) the other various examples throughout. 'Cause that is crucial to an analysis of the opera.

I'd say it's definitely important to understand the structures in the opera. Each scene is a different, but complete instrumental classical form -- sonata-allegro, rondo, passacaglia, scherzo, fugue, invention, march; they're all present. This is a pretty important thing when looking at Wozzeck. You should also look at that numerology -- is there a reason that Berg has 15 scenes -- 3 Acts with 5 scenes each? Do these Acts, with scenes in complete forms, form larger structures? A symphony perhaps? A suite?

Dark, if you're going to try to analyze Berg, you need to study music theory first. You need to have a firm understanding of tonal-harmony as well as 20th+ century theories.

"From the moment when the curtain rises until it descends for the last time there must not be anyone in the audience who notices anything of these various fugues and inventions, suite movements and sonata movements, variations and passacaglias. Nobody must be filled with anything else except the idea of the opera - which goes far beyond the fate of Wozzeck. And that - so I believe - I have achieved!" -- Alban Berg

First of all, the reason that trying to approach Wozzeck from a 12-tone analytical approach becomes frustrating is because Wozzeck was not written using the 12-tone system.

I LOL'd.

Indeed. 12 tone music by the students of Schoenberg only starts showing up around 1924, after Wozzeck was completed. Berg did experiment with serial-like principles and ideas, but they were not organized according to any particular system.

I LOL'd.

Indeed. 12 tone music by the students of Schoenberg only starts showing up around 1924, after Wozzeck was completed. Berg did experiment with serial-like principles and ideas, but they were not organized according to any particular system.

Unless, of course, he was using the non-dodecaphonic serial system of Nikolai Roslavets or Carl Ruggles. ;)

Haha

No, he didn't. It was a joke.

So we can share a LOL now.

Yeah I'm silly, Roslavets was what, around 10 when Berg started writing 12 tone music?

Yeah I'm silly, Roslavets was what, around 10 when Berg started writing 12 tone music?

Haha, we keep quoting posts that we delete, and keep deleting them!

Actually, Roslavets started developing his 12 tone system around 1917 I believe.

Haha, we keep quoting posts that we delete, and keep deleting them!

Actually, Roslavets started devolving his 12 tone system around 1917 I believe.

Cuz I obviously can't read dates right. I don't hear about him often enough, I guess because he didn't have as much of an impact as Schoenberg and his whole deal.

Cuz I obviously can't read dates right. I don't hear about him often enough, I guess because he didn't have as much of an impact as Schoenberg and his whole deal.

No he didn't. His system is pretty interesting though, it's all based on Skryabin's "Mystic Chord". Ruggles' system is interesting too, though pretty simple. Either way, American and Russian 12 tone systems were established. Also, we could argue that Bartok developed a Hungarian 12 tone system.

But yes. Schoenberg definitely had the big impact.

Probably due to the more european-centric role of modernism at that stage. The US only starts entering the "world stage" in the 40s and the Russians, even guys like Stravinsky, were always on the periphery (and even for Stravinsky he had to be in central Europe at the right time for us to remember him in that much detail.)

First of all, the reason that trying to approach Wozzeck from a 12-tone analytical approach becomes frustrating is because Wozzeck was not written using the 12-tone system. It's freely "atonal". Of his two operas, Lulu is the only one that uses a tone row. And, if I'm not mistaken, Schoenberg hadn't developed the 12-tone system until around 1923 and Wozzeck was completed in 1921 or '22. Yes it uses some serial ideas (such as inversions of motives), but it is not a serial composition.

It's a common misconception that the 12-tone system was not implemented until 1923. Composers were actually using tone rows well before that time, almost 30 years prior, just not in any consistent way until serialism actually had time to manifest. It's true that 'serialism' as it were didn't really emerge as a popular form until many years after Schoenberg introduced his system. This is all well documented, but that's beside the point.

Berg, generally, is a 'free atonalist' in respect to most of his works. I see no difference between my previous post and your reply. I agree with everything you said, except that your disagreement with me seems a bit misplaced. Besides, the poster asked for an example of whether or not to use 12-tone analysis. Berg used rows for melodic material, he often just harmonized them with triads without regard for functionality creating what some would call 'free-atonality' (which is a funny thing to call it, honestly). It's just a precursor to serialism, but the common thread is the experimentation with the row itself, at least the linear aspect.

Berg, generally, is a 'free atonalist' in respect to most of his works. I see no difference between my previous post and your reply. I agree with everything you said, except that your disagreement with me seems a bit misplaced. Besides, the poster asked for an example of whether or not to use 12-tone analysis. Berg used rows for melodic material, he often just harmonized them with triads without regard for functionality creating what some would call 'free-atonality' (which is a funny thing to call it, honestly). It's just a precursor to serialism, but the common thread is the experimentation with the row itself, at least the linear aspect.

Again, Berg used NO TONE ROWS in Wozzeck. My disagreement with your statement is that you make it seem (and what you're saying still does) as if Wozzeck was composed using the 12-tone system and with a tone row. It was not and does not. There are elements of serialism, motives in retrograde or inversion, but it is not a dodecaphonic piece of music. Stop trying to spin it like it is.

It's a common misconception that the 12-tone system was not implemented until 1923. Composers were actually using tone rows well before that time, almost 30 years prior, just not in any consistent way until serialism actually had time to manifest. It's true that 'serialism' as it were didn't really emerge as a popular form until many years after Schoenberg introduced his system. This is all well documented, but that's beside the point.

Woah, you need to take a second to think before you post. The 12-tone system (or serialism, or dodecaphonic music) and tone rows are two entirely different things. Just as the "12-tone system" and Ruggles' 12-tone system are two different things.

Just because Bach, Mozart (woah, more than 30 years!), and Ives used "tone rows" doesn't mean that dodecaphonic music was being written then (side note: it's actually inaccurate to call them tone rows pre-Schoenberg, but whatever). There is no "misconception" here. I'm completely aware of my history... are you?

I find it's much easier to understand Berg through the smaller motifs, analyzing the larger structure based on how the ideas germinate in his works. Many of his lines are 12-tone, but Berg makes subtle adjustments to eliminate the row... often sidesteps the 12-tone line with some repeated note, so trying to approach Berg from a 12-tone analytical approach often becomes much more frustrating. The Violin Concerto is particularly crazy-difficult to analyze in 12-tone rows, but both the Concerto and Wozzeck have plenty of ideas that are pretty much simple structures that build into larger, more complex structures.

ya . i am trying to break the hell down into smaller motives ,however , it is pretty harsh for me to do so . personaly i think every motive from this piece seem divided into 2 dimensions majorly , one is rhythmic motive , other is pitch motive and the pitch motive would be apply 12-tone serious skill , another rhythmic aspect would be apply a skill which quite unfamilar on me , so the reason that it will extemely resist me to break down it as well is because i dont know the relationship between rhythm and 12-tone serious

anyone can help me

dark-princess

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory_(music)

You may find some pitch classes.

Maybe at some point for example only 4 particularly notes are heard in a group of instruments for 12 bars while another 6 are heard elsewhere. At the same time much less tightly controlled atonal writing may be occurring. I don't know the piece well but read that wiki article.

Natetron

anyone can help me

Just going to restate my "learn your theory" advice.

Woah, you need to take a second to think before you post. The 12-tone system (or serialism, or dodecaphonic music) and tone rows are two entirely different things. Just as the "12-tone system" and Ruggles' 12-tone system are two different things.

Just because Bach, Mozart (woah, more than 30 years!), and Ives used "tone rows" doesn't mean that dodecaphonic music was being written then (side note: it's actually inaccurate to call them tone rows pre-Schoenberg, but whatever). There is no "misconception" here. I'm completely aware of my history... are you?

Woah... you need to think about what you're saying.

If you're trying to pin anything remotely close to serialism down to post-1923, you seriously need to consider your time span of the style's emergence. It took Schoenberg several years of research and experimentation before he ever published his theories on what we call Serialism and 12-tone Dodecaphony. Factor in the time it took for his publications to spread globally (at least within the Western Tradition)... I'm wondering if you actually think some of these terms were even coined by Schoenberg. Many of them weren't, just so you know.

It wasn't actually Schoenberg who 'originated' the tenants of what we call Serialism today. His work was more an effort to organize what many (maybe hundreds) of composers were doing in their work with contemporary music of the period, avoiding traditional harmonic principles and experimenting freely with melody and harmony. Schoenberg did not just have some epiphany one day, in one sudden burst of brilliance, and just write all of his thoughts down and publish them. He was influenced by predecessors, peers, mentors, and his own interest in the emerging style. So was Berg, who lived during the same time period.

The whole history of the Second Viennese School expands far beyond the three composers who championed the movement. And Berg DID use tone rows in quite a bit of his music, including Wozzeck, but only to the extent of, like one poster said, to work out the inversions and retrogrades of the various motifs, not for hardly any of his harmonic material. If I had a score, I'd pick out measures for you where you could look at some of the linear material so you could see for yourself. I'm almost certain the final scene has a piano playing serial music, all 12 tones in the line, in the style of a children's song... but of course it's not going to be some in-the-box representation of Serialism. I never said that was the case at all.

I'm pretty astounded that your knowledge of history is so strictly textbook with little to no contextual foundation whatsoever, honestly. I'm not 'disagreeing' with your assessment at all, but I'm not about to sit here and be chastized for explaining how it went down either, at least as I understand it from several lectures on the topic. I can tell you're chomping at the bit here to catch me dealing out 'misinformation', but until you actually know the context of the time period, you're really not having a great amount of success with it.

----------------

And people think I'm the one trying to put music into a gift-wrapped box. Geez! This is a very retarded argument... I've had my say, I'm out of it now. Move on, Charlie.

Woah... you need to think about what you're saying.

If you're trying to pin anything remotely close to serialism down to post-1923, you seriously need to consider your time span of the style's emergence. It took Schoenberg several years of research and experimentation before he ever published his theories on what we call Serialism and 12-tone Dodecaphony. Factor in the time it took for his publications to spread globally (at least within the Western Tradition)... I'm wondering if you actually think some of these terms were even coined by Schoenberg. Many of them weren't, just so you know.

Well, first off, Schoenberg's Suite for Piano, Op. 25 was his first completely 12-tone piece, that was completed in 1923. The 5 Pieces for Piano, Op. 23 has the first 12-tone section, that was completed in 1923 as well. Schoenberg did not teach his students serialism, Webern and Berg figured it out afterwards. So yeah. I'm going to continue to say 1923 was when it started. It then grew via Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg. Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, and Stravinsky (among others) then took off with it at various points after that. Pre-1923, however, no 12-tone music -- Webern was coming to similar conclusions on his own, but then incorporated Schoenberg's methods, Berg was over there trying to serve two masters -- attempting to mimic both Mahler and Schoenberg. He then adopted serial composition post-1923. So again, Wozzeck is not serial.

Also, you were the one that threw out "twelve tone rows were used pre-1923" in the first place.

I'm completely aware that Schoenberg didn't coin terms. Rene Leibowitz was the first to use the word "serial" I believe. Oh and wow, Schoenberg didn't use matrices either. Schoenberg developed a compositional method, it was then expanded upon and theorized about. That doesn't mean it's proper to refer to Ives use of 12-tone pitch collections as tone rows

Thanks for the history lesson, but again, Wozzeck is not serial. And if you think the use of all 12 chromatic pitches makes it a serial work, well then I guess Brahms' 4th Symphony is serial too, huh? Yeah, I know you can find all 12 pitches within Wozzeck, that doesn't make it serial. It doesn't even make it atonal.

No joke Schoenberg was influenced by previous composers. Schoenberg wasn't a radical, his 12-tone system is essentially his attempt at an "atonal" tonal harmony. Again, I'm grateful for the history lesson, you've really expanded my knowledge. Next time you might want to consider providing new information though.

Also, you were the one that threw out "twelve tone rows were used pre-1923" in the first place...

Because they were, experimentally, and in other styles pre-Serialism... and I wasn't the one who initially mentioned 12-tone theory, that was the original poster, if you'll recall.

That doesn't mean it's proper to refer to Ives use of 12-tone pitch collections as tone rows...

Proper?? LOL! Give me a break!

Some will argue til they're blue in the face about how this or that was EXACTLY how it happened, as if you were there in the room with Ives when he was writing... and no, I'm not making statements to the contrary regarding Ives. His intent was much different, not to mention his era of music is generationally different than Berg's. But whatever...

Thanks for the history lesson, but again, Wozzeck is not serial. And if you think the use of all 12 chromatic pitches makes it a serial work, well then I guess Brahms' 4th Symphony is serial too, huh? Yeah, I know you can find all 12 pitches within Wozzeck, that doesn't make it serial. It doesn't even make it atonal....

No joke Schoenberg was influenced by previous composers. Schoenberg wasn't a radical, his 12-tone system is essentially his attempt at an "atonal" tonal harmony. Again, I'm grateful for the history lesson, you've really expanded my knowledge. Next time you might want to consider providing new information though.

What exactly is it that you think you're accomplishing here, besides trying to save face on the back of attempting to call me out. At this point, you're mincing words, not arguing a necessary point.

Like I originally posted, Berg is generally not one to try to analyze with 12-tone theory. We both agree on that. Seriously, just let it go.

Because they were, experimentally, and in other styles pre-Serialism... and I wasn't the one who initially mentioned 12-tone theory, that was the original poster, if you'll recall.

No, you were, however, the one that suggested Wozzeck can be analyzed as a 12-tone work.

Proper?? LOL! Give me a break!

Some will argue til they're blue in the face about how this or that was EXACTLY how it happened, as if you were there in the room with Ives when he was writing... and no, I'm not making statements to the contrary regarding Ives. His intent was much different, not to mention his era of music is generationally different than Berg's. But whatever...

Not sure what your point is with this statement... if you even have one.

What exactly is it that you think you're accomplishing here, besides trying to save face on the back of attempting to call me out. At this point, you're mincing words, not arguing a necessary point.

Like I originally posted, Berg is generally not one to try to analyze with 12-tone theory. We both agree on that. Seriously, just let it go.

Berg is one to be analyzed with 12-tone theory. Just not his non-12-tone works, such as Wozzeck, just like I'd analyze Schoenberg's Piano Concerto with 12-tone theory and not his second String Quartet.

No, you were, however, the one that suggested Wozzeck can be analyzed as a 12-tone work.

Let's review...

i have a book ' date=' and the size like a bible , What is it ? a opera , a opera from berg -wozzeck , however , i want to study it without a proper paths to understand it , would you mind to tell what skill it used on this piece

[b']for example 12-tone ...[/b]

I responded that analyzing the piece with 12-tone theory would be frustrating, it's better to analyze the motifs. "Many of his lines [as in, motivic and more importantly, melodic lines] are 12-tone [or generate from 12-tone linear structures], but Berg makes subtle adjustments to eliminate the row [like changing and repeating pitches, for example]..."

To which you replied... as though you were correcting some fatal flaw...

First of all, the reason that trying to approach Wozzeck from a 12-tone analytical approach becomes frustrating is because Wozzeck was not written using the 12-tone system.

Most educated people know this. I know this. You know this. You're just making this statement to be a complete donkey.

Then you go on about your post with this hilarious bit about how 12-tone systems weren't used until after 1923, which is patently false. Sure, no Serialist pieces were written prior to that time, but techniques were already in place long before Schoenberg, often for purposes of generating melodic, free-tonal music. These were systems, like early hybrid forms of doodling what we'd use set theory to analyze today.

Can we move on from this yet? Seriously? You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and it's obnoxious.

Let's review...

I responded that analyzing the piece with 12-tone theory would be frustrating, it's better to analyze the motifs. "Many of his lines [as in, motivic and more importantly, melodic lines] are 12-tone [or generate from 12-tone linear structures], but Berg makes subtle adjustments to eliminate the row [like changing and repeating pitches, for example]..."

To which you replied... as though you were correcting some fatal flaw...

It is a fatal flaw! You're suggesting that one should be looking for tone rows in Wozzeck! You can analyze pitch sets, but "tone-row" and Wozzeck should not be in the same conversation.

Then you go on about your post with this hilarious bit about how 12-tone systems weren't used until after 1923, which is patently false. Sure, no Serialist pieces were written prior to that time, but techniques were already in place long before Schoenberg, often for purposes of generating melodic, free-tonal music. These were systems, like early hybrid forms of doodling what we'd use set theory to analyze today.

No, I said that Schoenberg's system of 12-tone composition wasn't used until 1923. But leave it to someone of your stature to fabricate truth.

You're suggesting that one should be looking for tone rows in Wozzeck!

EDIT: Cite me saying this, word for word in this thread.

The guy asked ... I said he COULD ...

The dude's a girl.

The dude's a girl.

Charles Ivan Punchatz on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

Nope.

If you're referring to the original poster, then oops. Just assume instances of 'dude' and 'he' apply to the 'original poster' or something.

Charles Ivan Punchatz on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

Nope.

If you're referring to the original poster, then oops. Just assume instances of 'dude' and 'he' apply to the 'original poster' or something.

I appreciate the promo, thanks!