charliep123 Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 You've seen and commented some of my work, provided me with some articles i've read. I'd like to learn more from you about form, structure, and maybe some new tonal systems Hey JR! Please expand on the kind of things you would like to learn about so that I have a better idea and we can get started! Also, please post (or email me) whatever it is that you're currently working on.
jrcramer Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 hey charles, thanks for accepting me as student. sorry for being so brief, but form/structure is the main thing i would like to learn some present-day or at least some more recent theories. FORM When I had private lessons i've been taught the forms like sonata, rondo. I think I understand the whole concept of themes, variations, development etcetera. But these ideas are old. I feel like a old-fashioned Brahms against the newish Bruckner (I heard they had an argument about form?) Well, as I write a piece, I usual start with one theme, and idea. That grows like a development, or like A A'. And then I feel its time fore a second theme. I search on my computer for a suitable file and add it. Then I start combining, or alternate between A and B. I choose to follow the sonata form, or not. Well. It is not so structured as I want it to be. Therefore I hope you could give me some advice, theories to learn from or apply to my writing. TONAL As you have seen on my stringquartet i have been playing with some modal scales. But the music i like has always some tonal center. I think i cannot leave the idea of a tertiary (right word?) scale. Thats why the modus 3 mostly had thirds as basis. I only wanted to add some interesting harmonic progressions. Composers I harmonicly like are Russians like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Armenians like Kachaturian, Impressionists like Debussy Ravel, other french like Poulenc, and the less know organ composers like Dupre, Durufle and Jehan Alain. Messiaen is already to incomprehensible to me... But as far as I'm concerned, this area of interest is a second priority. hope you know more now, and thanks again!
jrcramer Posted August 23, 2009 Posted August 23, 2009 OK, here is a overview on how i analyse my Clarinet concerto part 2 I dont know what for rules there are about analysing a work. I use capitals for themes and little characters for phrases (if neccecary) there are two themes (IN CAPITALS): A ms 3-14 B ms 38-45 when I split theme A in phrases (little characters) I would say a1 ms 3-6 b ms 7-10 a2 ms 11-14 There are two other things occurring thoughout the piece, growing form the A theme. One is the group of 3 staccato quarters downwards like in ms 32 and 34 (intervals are taken form phrase b). The other is the repeating thing starting halfway ms 70 till 75 based on the first two notes of phrase a. ----EXPOSITION---- 1 intro 3 A (3/4) 15 intermezzo (based on a1 (first phrase)) 23 A' (same harmony) 32 intermezzo 38 B (4/4) 46 B' (onward the canon like treatment becomes a attribute of this B theme ----DEVELOPMENTAL---- 54 developmental alteration of both themes 54 A 56 B-like (accompan, rhythm, down-scale) 57 A 59 B-like 60 A 62 B 63 B in bass and clarinet (canon-like) 67 A 70 repeat of first two notes of Atheme in clarinet, with B-like down scale in picc and bsn. This will become a recurring motive, first heard in ms 56 ----REPRISE---- 76 A, where the b phrase is altered: sequence one up, in stead of one down 84 A 98 kind of cadenza 114 B, clarinet has notes taken from the A-theme 122 A, again cadenza-like (all notes are there, except for the bass. So the ear hears Es, in stead of c) 134 A' in the way it was altered in ms 54. the corresponding B-like downward scale (like ms 56,59,etc) was shortened and placed in the last two beats of each two measures 142 again a shortened version of a previous developmental variation (comp ms 70) 147 new variation on B 151 ... on A ----coda?---- 160 A, same harmonies, clarinet-melody transposed ... unfinished. The idea is that the movement is almost ended. now I analyse my own work i see I accidentely wrote in a sonate form. (strange for a 2nd movement?) Well. i hope ths is what you wanted me to do. I'm looking forward to feedback
charliep123 Posted August 24, 2009 Author Posted August 24, 2009 JR, Give me a couple of days to look over the piece and I'll get back to you.
jrcramer Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 just made an ending posted score and MP3 at cla_conc - Folder Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage
charliep123 Posted August 28, 2009 Author Posted August 28, 2009 What was your structural plan with this piece? Its a bit disjointed. Also, I would like to see you develop your theme a bit more, and expand your harmonic language. I would also like to see your contrapuntal language develop more. Also, this is more of an orchestral piece, not so much a concerto. I know you sent me a lot of stuff that you've been working on, but I would like you to start a new piece. I want you to try some things.
jrcramer Posted August 28, 2009 Posted August 28, 2009 What was your structural plan with this piece? Its a bit disjointed. There was no plan on forehand.:blush: I wonder: how did you see? What do you mean by disjointed? The alteration of A and B? How do I structure this? I want to learn that. Is here some new interesting theory about, I'd love to learn Also, I would like to see you develop your theme a bit more, and expand your harmonic language.I would also like to see your contrapuntal language develop more. During the piece, or in the next pieces? I am aware that my tonal language is different than yours. I really don't know where to start. As you know I tried to expand here and there, but I feel I have to understand something before I can like it, and have to like something before i can write likewise... Also, this is more of an orchestral piece, not so much a concerto. More people have commented this in the threat (http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/movement-clarinet-orchestra-21599.html). I responded it was intended to be a second movement, after a fast opening, and it was more about range and tone quality, than about a lot of fast virtuoso notes. but this is not the important issue here I know you sent me a lot of stuff that you've been working on, but I would like you to start a new piece. I want you to try some things. ok, its a bit scary, but exciting too ;) whats the assignment? where to start? tnx
charliep123 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 I would like you to write a chamber piece (ensemble is up to you). Before you even think about putting notes on a staff, I would like to see a clear plan. Durations, melodic/harmoic ideas, etc.
jrcramer Posted September 1, 2009 Posted September 1, 2009 Ok, plan. Ensemble: piano & bassoon Duration 4min? If have two melodic/harmonic ideas. The first is the quartal(?) piano piece I recently posted. I am more and more fascinated, although I feel to know to little to act well-reflected (see http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/quartal-experiment-21677.html and quartal - Folder Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage) 2nd Idea is more conceptual. I want to explore the Idea of a chord formed by increasing intervalls. Like a g, than 1 semitone lower, then 2 semitones, then 3 and so on. there chords can be augmented using increasing steps of 2 or 3 semitones in stead of 1. well. Just conceptual. I played the chord that appear, and I think its a interesting idea. As for these two ideas I dnt know how to intergrate them. and that is why I wanted some lessons on 20th century form. I don't think you want me to write a decent common practice sonata ;) And jst switch between A and B isnt an option either... What to do?
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