How often are strings tuned down an interval step?

That's stupid.

That's why you can't orchestrate; you don't use the instruments to their full potential.

Was that necessary?

Using the instrument to their full potential does not include changing the tuning it was designed for beyond reasonable.

Besides, the reason why I said learn the real range, is because there's no need outside of a solo context for a different tuning. In a string orchestra setting, other instruments exist for a reason.

It's one thing to not know basic orchestration. However, I learned more about how a bass worked by bowing all sorts of areas, putzing around with it, even with no real knowledge of how to play... I dunno. Both are necessary for well-rounded composition -- to be fair, I tend to lack the basics.

That's stupid.

That's why you can't orchestrate; you don't use the instruments to their full potential.

Was that necessary?

Using the instrument to their full potential does not include changing the tuning it was designed for beyond reasonable.

Besides, the reason why I said learn the real range, is because there's no need outside of a solo context for a different tuning. In a string orchestra setting, other instruments exist for a reason.

That's why most us-- students I suppose-- love to, and should write chamber works. We can exploit, and idiomatically write for instruments that would get lost within the use of compounding instruments in a larger setting. Exploring these nuances makes orchestration a lot easier when writing for large ensembles, although both are different from each other.

Having a command over all of the techniques and ways that an instrument sounds is indispensable.

Also, I'm farily confident most instruments weren't designed for a specific tuning, as if everything harmonically conceivable was precognate of an instrument's build. I think things just came to be over time as experimentation with music, improvements in technology, and pure innovation had a turn with instrument make.

Color is much too important to close anything off as a possibility. But then, as Voce implied (slightly :P), not paying attention to the smallest of details would make for bad orchestration.

PS. Bachian - I can offer one example of practical and creative use of scordatura - check out Sacre Du Printemps- Rehearsal number 90, the transition to The Mystic Circle of Young Girls. He has the cellos split into 2 solo cellos, and divisi for the rest of the cellos. He gives one solo cello four bars to retune a half step down and Stravinsky helps the cellist with the retuning by having the other solo cello end his solo on a b on octave higher.

The solo cello that is retuning his cello is preparing to play artificial harmonics by playing B and touch the F# above it to sound an F # below C, The other cello plays an artificial touched 3rd harmonic - using the lowest string and producing a middle C. What makes this particularly ingenious is 1) using the lowest open string to produce two different harmonics 2) giving advance notice to one of the solo cellist to retune AND having the other cello provide a guidepost of where the other cello should tune 4) having the other divisi cellos play pizz with mutes so that these fragile harmonics are heard while he has only the violas in a divisi of 6(!) play a harmonization of the melody in a range from the b below middle C to the second F above middle C - creating a rich,warm, reedy (due to the 6 independent parts) sound that doesn't overpower the harmonics. So an excellent example of use of scordatura and harmonics and orchestration.

Great analysis, I hadn't noticed that before. The cello scordatura at the very end of the Rite (the last chord) is so pointless though. When I saw it live, the orchestra didnt bother with the retuning and it sounded fine.

Yeah - Rite is funny in that there are brilliant uses of advanced techniques as well as an occasional needlessly complicated deployments of these techniques. In addition to your example, some of the brass chords are so difficult to play in tune that brass players tell me they don't always get the pitches - and no one is the wiser!

I figure I'll add my two cents. String players are just as fussy as any other instrumentalist. I wouldn't ask them to tune down. Most complain about the "design of the instrument" was meant for a certain tuning.

Think of a violin that is around 150+ years old. First it was built for gut strings, then steel strings come along that add more brilliance but more pressure on an old instrument that has gone through y-e-a-r-s of summers, and winters expanding and contracting. I think most would do it if the violin was a cheaper model. (I say violin but I should say all strings but...) Honestly, I hate it. I can't stand having a string flopping around down there. During a performance with a "detuning" I'm more concerned over my instrument than hitting the lower notes.

BTW, you'll also lose power in those flattened strings. They kinda become a thud floppy thing. You're going from g to f right? Yeah, you'll lose some power.

Orchestration wise shifting the line down the "string ranks" is not very wise either if you have to go that way. For example a low violin line given to the violas. Bless the violas but.. there are usually only 2 or 3 of them. They are a rare bird. You'll lose power that way as well. Shifting the cello line down to the basses? Really bad idea. Basses are really good at doubling the cellos an octave down, but playing their lines? Blech... Looks good on paper and makes logical sense but in reality it will sound unsatisfactory.

okay... 6 cents.. sorry

String players are just as fussy as any other instrumentalist. I wouldn't ask them to tune down. Most complain about the "design of the instrument" was meant for a certain tuning.

I'm sorry, but never trust a player for history. Especially one who isn't of the highest calibur. Even then, those players can not really know a thing about his or her instrument.

Think of a violin that is around 150+ years old. First it was built for gut strings, then steel strings come along that add more brilliance but more pressure on an old instrument that has gone through y-e-a-r-s of summers, and winters expanding and contracting. I think most would do it if the violin was a cheaper model. (I say violin but I should say all strings but...) Honestly, I hate it. I can't stand having a string flopping around down there. During a performance with a "detuning" I'm more concerned over my instrument than hitting the lower notes.

Loosening strings will NEVER do structural damage to an instrument unless every single string is signficantly loosened to the point where the strings will put the pressure in the range of having no pressure on the bridge at all. This is bad when playing on an instrument. The sound post can collapse. However, it is fine when making a violin (obviously)

BTW, you'll also lose power in those flattened strings. They kinda become a thud floppy thing. You're going from g to f right? Yeah, you'll lose some power.[/Quote]

Some power in a strings section isn't anything to be concerned about. Lionel Tertis's transcription of the Elgar cello concerto utilizes scordatura in the 3rd movement. The C string is tuned down to a B natural. Violas are probably the least projecting instrument in the family. If a SOLO viola can tune down on the lowest string and still be heard, obviously power was never a question when actually utilizing the scordatura. Color is why we scordatura, not simply for pitches.

Orchestration wise shifting the line down the "string ranks" is not very wise either if you have to go that way. For example a low violin line given to the violas. Bless the violas but.. there are usually only 2 or 3 of them. They are a rare bird. You'll lose power that way as well. Shifting the cello line down to the basses? Really bad idea. Basses are really good at doubling the cellos an octave down, but playing their lines? Blech... Looks good on paper and makes logical sense but in reality it will sound unsatisfactory.

You can't say anything will sound good or bad until you see what is actually being written. That's silly.

"Hey guys, never write for a flute to flutter tongue above C5 cuz whenever I hear someone play above that it sounds bad... even though it looks good on paper."

Same sort of deal. I think instead of being theoretical, you should think of technique with actual music in mind. That's sort of where it comes from any way.

No one should be inherently writing "cello lines" or "viola lines" in music... motifs and orchestration will shift around (as things probably will in a homogenous choir of instruments)... so I don't even know what you are trying to say with that.

Keeping music in mind is the answer kids. Good lawd.

As a cellist I disagree with most of this thread...

1. I recommend NEVER tuning DOWN either of the bottom 2 strings on the cello, it creates a very disappointing and unfocused sound, approaching that of a "rubber band banjo," because of the lost string tension. I would assume the same thing goes for the other strings.

2. Retuning a string section mid-piece is just asking for trouble. Retuning a solo instrument might be ok I guess.

3. If you are thinking about retuning just to fit the range then you need to transpose, not ask the players to work around a note that isn't in their vocabulary.

"rubber band banjo" lol

Sounds REAL nice

Violin can be tuned down or up a little bit. I know that, but i have no experience in Violincello

As a cellist I disagree with most of this thread...

1. I recommend NEVER tuning DOWN either of the bottom 2 strings on the cello, it creates a very disappointing and unfocused sound, approaching that of a "rubber band banjo," because of the lost string tension. I would assume the same thing goes for the other strings.

2. Retuning a string section mid-piece is just asking for trouble. Retuning a solo instrument might be ok I guess.

3. If you are thinking about retuning just to fit the range then you need to transpose, not ask the players to work around a note that isn't in their vocabulary.

Um, check what was JUST posted before you posted. Elgar. Viola. Hello?

Well, "it creates a very disappointing sound" is a very subjective statement. It's only "disappointing" if you are expecting something different and don't happen to like that particular sound. Since I do know professional cellists, some of whom even compose themselves and both write and play things where the cello is retuned even during a piece (or even tuning peg glissandi are executed), it's apparently not a sentiment shared by all cellists…

Just take this awesome glissando in the Xenakis piece I mentioned (nomos alpha) where the C string is tuned down an octave (the glissando starts at about 3:45, but first on a higher string). Doesn't it sound great?

Xenakis: nomos alpha

Btw. also check out the first two parts of this on youtube. It's worth it!

Well, "it creates a very disappointing sound" is a very subjective statement. It's only "disappointing" if you are expecting something different and don't happen to like that particular sound. Since I do know professional cellists, some of whom even compose themselves and both write and play things where the cello is retuned even during a piece (or even tuning peg glissandi are executed), it's apparently not a sentiment shared by all cellists

Yes, a great piece but read the comments carefully. They mention that this piece is so difficult to get exact for solo cello that there is a recording of a cellist dividing for 2 cellos.

This is a solo cello performance and the effect you mention Gardener is quite cool.

Gardener - yeah I wasn't contesting the coolness of the effect. And you know the cellist???? Man you are lucky to know such excellent musicians.

Well, the 2 cello thing has nothing to do with the scordatura. That's about the passage before this, where there are independant "scales" running in entirely different registers of the cello, one played naturally, the other with harmonics.

Of course the piece is insanely hard to play (I actually know the cellist who played this recording and he explained a lot about this piece to me), but the scordatura is probably one of the less challenging parts of it.

But looking at the score now I was actually wrong in saying this is a tuning peg glissando. The C string is tuned down an octave earlier than this and the glissando at the end is just a normal glissando executed on this C string that leads to said low C.

Well, "it creates a very disappointing sound" is a very subjective statement. It's only "disappointing" if you are expecting something different and don't happen to like that particular sound.

The only point I was seeking to make is that it is an extended technique timbrally as well as an extended technique from a performance POV.

In a piece FULL of extended techniques like the one you posted, it is not out of place. And you're right that rather than the subjective word "disappointing" I could have used objective descriptive words. A detuned cello C is loose, wobbly, etc. It just is; just like an oboe's bottom notes are coarse honks.

If the only concern is range (not looking for that special timbre difference) then absolutely transpose instead of detune.

Point taken :)

Hello

Interesting post. As the different post have shown both tuning down the strings is indeed possible and compositionally viable, and you have to know who you are writing for and wether your risk is indeed justified. I don't think you can ever say enough about editing so the big word of advice would be to show a teacher, or expert string writer before you put it on the stand for the players.

I have explored writing for string ensembles using different tunings. You have to be extremely careful with your notation. Also you have to ensure that there will be enough rehearsal time. In general you need to let the strings set a great deal longer than you would tuning say a guitar. I allow about 45 minutes for the strings to set, and plan on doubling the rehearsal time. The players need to get used to the tuning. Also write everything as played. Do not mix the two, or you should be shot at dawn. Remember as well that you can play the same notes on adjacent strings and if you have tuned different strings at different interval you need to specify what string they are to play on (To elaborate on the piece I am putting a link to I tuned the violin E to a C and the A to a G thus E can be played on either string but now the hand position is all out of order)

There is a point when rehearsing when players are going to make a judgement on whether or not your piece is any good. I would recommend only doing this as a solo piece first. This way when you find 1 performer who is adventurous you can ask questions, and learn from them. Ensemble are a whole different context. There is not the time to try things out, and the dynamics of playing are different. Anyhow enough rambling. There is indeed gold in them hills for those who are able to pull it off.

Here is a link to a piece I did where every string instrument is detuned. The players liked the piece, and there is no other way they could play this as fast as they can on the recording without retuning. (its all over the place in fiddle music.) Lastly as was mentioned in another post - the overtones caused by the resonance of the instruments also colors the piece greatly.

I don't know how to link this piece directly into my post, but if you click

here Doug Gibson Composer on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

and go to the piece Awakening Within you can hear what I have done.

Best wishes and happy composing

Doug

I agree that parts should be as fingered. String players are not used to transposing. Writing the fingered pitches makes it a lot easier and will cut down rehearsal needs. On the other hand if you do transpose you need to put an asterisk or extend a bracket over all the notes played on that string. And you should take the part to a player and make sure it's done well...