'Silence' Music

Same here...

I will discuss it with the other mods if we can cesnor the words "Cage", "4'33"" and a few others from the forum! It would make a pleasent change to read:

_____ by _______ is stupid! :D

I think silence is part of music and it is very usefull when composer put it on the right place at the right time and I don't mean john cage or something like that.

Here is a piece for solo cello and strings that I compose for a movie and a nice example of how silence may ''work''.

As you hear it imagine the same piece without those stops...

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=18458&stc=1&d=1252578935

Lucy's Bite.mus

To be fair, I read the "(LOL)" as: "(LOL at bringing that piece up again)", which is a rather valid LOL, rather than "LOL at that piece". And as long as someone can comprehend how a piece like that can be seen as music, I don't find it too tragic if they don't consider it music themselves, as long as they take the matter seriously and at least consider it. The only thing that really annoys me is when people go "it can't be seen as music, and you don't see it as music either, nor do you like it, nor does anybody else".

I definitely took it a different way. If that was the poster's intended meaning, then I certainly apologize.

But my response to the comment about non-pitched percussion still stands....

I definitely took it a different way. If that was the poster's intended meaning, then I certainly apologize.

But my response to the comment about non-pitched percussion still stands....

Okay, no problem. LOL was because I hate to use that example because it's so overused and everyone knows it.

About the non-pitched percussion... I think I knew someone would get mad, but didn't know how else to say it. I certainly call it just as musical as anything else. My point was, it's closer to being noise than pitched instruments because the vibrations don't line up in an orderly way to make a specific pitch, which is just a fact. Actually, pure white noise itself can be sampled and used in a very percussive and nice way, in the right piece.

And I understand the idea of 4'33", really. But I don't think it's immature or ignorant to have the opinion that it is not a piece of music, especially with an example so borderline.

Okay, no problem. LOL was because I hate to use that example because it's so overused and everyone knows it.

About the non-pitched percussion... I think I knew someone would get mad, but didn't know how else to say it. I certainly call it just as musical as anything else. My point was, it's closer to being noise than pitched instruments because the vibrations don't line up in an orderly way to make a specific pitch, which is just a fact. Actually, pure white noise itself can be sampled and used in a very percussive and nice way, in the right piece.

And I understand the idea of 4'33", really. But I don't think it's immature or ignorant to have the opinion that it is not a piece of music, especially with an example so borderline.

I wasn't saying that it's 'wrong' to consider 4'33'' to be non-musical; I was mostly saying it's wrong to just flippantly disregard it because it is comprised of 'silence'. Most of that came from my misunderstanding of your LOL.

Regarding non-pitched percussion, I wasn't angered, it's just annoying to run into the viewpoint that percussion is not on the same level as other instruments, which is what I read your comment as. My post tone, however, indicates to the contrary, haha. It's clear now, though, that I completely misunderstood everything in your post. Go me.

Same here...

I will discuss it with the other mods if we can cesnor the words "Cage", "4'33"" and a few others from the forum! It would make a pleasent change to read:

_____ by _______ is stupid! :D

Cuz censorship is the best way to handle anything, eh?

Cuz censorship is the best way to handle anything, eh?

You actually think I was serious, right? Way to go man. Excellent judgement, excellent!

Okay, no problem. LOL was because I hate to use that example because it's so overused and everyone knows it.

At least you came up with an example :P

You actually think I was serious, right? Way to go man. Excellent judgement, excellent!

You actually thought I was serious? Way to go, man. Excellent Judgment, excellent!

Well, at least my slightly sarcastic post was:

a. not aimed at anyone in this forum

b. Had a smiley at the end.

On the contrary your posts were:

a. Aimed at me

b. With no indication of whether being serious or not.

Wanna keep talking and derail the thread any further? PM me if so.

Well, at least my slightly sarcastic post was:

a. not aimed at anyone in this forum

b. Had a smiley at the end.

On the contrary your posts were:

a. Aimed at me

b. With no indication of whether being serious or not.

Wanna keep talking and derail the thread any further? PM me if so.

Very well put.

...pwned.

See? It's not like you need ME to derail any threads, honestly. The mods do it just fine on their own.

See? It's not like you need ME to derail any threads, honestly. The mods do it just fine on their own.

I have no clue what you're talking about. :D

I have no clue what you're talking about. :D

Did I say anything? I don't recall having said anything. Nothing going on here, nope.

Better derailment - Measurement of dilatory autistics' affects while masticating raspberry rhubarb asparagus souffles in zero gravity in post industrial East Timor.

Now to the point -

Great point about Hadyn. Hadyn's experiments in silence were mostly for the humor of betraying audience expectations and serious explorations of structural silence. I'd wager Hadyn was the first to explore silence in a more contemporary sense. Hadyn just didn't go beyond a certain point - plus he was not acquainted with Eastern philosophy as Cage was. It may have been Eastern philosophy that enabled Cage to take the consideration of silence BEYOND a structural device to illuminate or confuse musical event to silence itself being an event and the conundrum that silence does not exist absolutely but rather relative to other sounds (eg silence=sound and that may be the one thing that defines our universe, there is no such thing as an absence of sound).

Some interesting Haydn pieces using silence:

Note how in this performance the player provides some nice "silences" to give room to the change in harmonies and the operatic affects interpolated. My only criticism he could have had more silence ion some parts. Especially the return to the recap. This is what makes these particular Hadyn sonatas challenging to play - letting them to breathe properly:

PS. Some of the best sonatas in the Classical literature comes from Hadyn's 1771 and 1773 sonatas ( as well as the great London sonatas)

In this Serenade it is interesting where he does NOT allow silence in order to move ahead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu6eBdRHDlc

Here is a famous use of silence by Haydn (lovely Picasso though not sure why it goes with Haydn):

I'm a big silence fan! And (at the expense of ostracizing myself), I'm also a big 4'33" and John Cage fan. My favorite use of silence, though, would have to be the clarinet solo movement of Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time. If it's a good clarinet player, it's unreal how smoothly they transition from silence to playing a reeeeeeeeeeallly quiet note.