Question about counterpoint

Dude, I was totally defending you... lol.

My post was directed toward Jon.

EDIT: Of course, now I know you were talking to Jon too.. and everything makes sense again. haha.

Yeah, that was my bad. I started typing it when there weren't any other posts up past Jon's last post. It's amazing how much quicker posts come in on threads when someone calls someone else an "asshole".

lol. Yes, I know.

Fux sucks. Abandon that book. Much better options out there.

mtt,

Basically, Renaissance counterpoint doesn't care about harmonic function. It is fundamentally modal, cares primarily about the combination of melodic lines and the intervals between them, so you shouldn't look for harmonic function. But if you somehow want to incorporate Renaissance counterpoint 'rules' in tonal context, what you can do is also look at what chords your melodic lines make as well as their rhythmic placement. You should look for tonal progressions. If you want chromaticism and modulations, then you should obviously introduce extra accidentals, so your counterpoint won't be Renaissance anymore.

Fourths are consonant if the lowest voice is not part of the interval.

Fux sucks. Abandon that book. Much better options out there.

This post would be more useful if you suggested some of the "better options" that are out there.

mtt,

Basically, Renaissance counterpoint doesn't care about harmonic function. It is fundamentally modal, cares primarily about the combination of melodic lines and the intervals between them, so you shouldn't look for harmonic function. But if you somehow want to incorporate Renaissance counterpoint 'rules' in tonal context, what you can do is also look at what chords your melodic lines make as well as their rhythmic placement. You should look for tonal progressions. If you want chromaticism and modulations, then you should obviously introduce extra accidentals, so your counterpoint won't be Renaissance anymore.

Fourths are consonant if the lowest voice is not part of the interval.

Thanks Kamen. What I am having trouble understanding is that even if Renaissance counterpoint rules do not use harmonic functions, by the 18th century they did. I dont understand how that gap was bridged of applying lessons of countermelodies within a given harmony. So, I have a melody, I have the harmony, but I want to add a countermelody. If Fux doesn't address this, how is this done? I have a harmonic progression and melody and want to add a countermelody to it in a way that is satisfying to the ear. Isn't the place to learn this counterpoint?

I recommend the book Structural Hearing by Salzer. The chapter on counter point is very good. I learn more from it than Fux.

Mtt, I am by no means an expert in this area. I consider myself still learning to compose. but I do have the same questions as yours at one point, so I think I may share my experience with you.

The way I use harmony and counterpoint is that I layout the overall direction from harmony standpoint. It's particular true for phrase ending and cadence. But within a prhase, I want to create more melodic interest of each voice, and I pay more consideration to counterpoint. I don't start with interval relationship between voices, but rather the shape (melodic interest) of each line, and check tine interval after. The simultaneous sounding of lines sometimes form chord that does not direct map to textbook harmony progression, sometimes not even notated by a reguarly chord symbol. They may serves as passing chord and with no function in the harmonic direction. (some people call it contrapunctual chord) Often time they tend to be more colorful than if I just create chord based on regular harmony grammer. I found it work pretty well for me.

Thanks Kamen. What I am having trouble understanding is that even if Renaissance counterpoint rules do not use harmonic functions, by the 18th century they did. I dont understand how that gap was bridged of applying lessons of countermelodies within a given harmony. So, I have a melody, I have the harmony, but I want to add a countermelody. If Fux doesn't address this, how is this done? I have a harmonic progression and melody and want to add a countermelody to it in a way that is satisfying to the ear. Isn't the place to learn this counterpoint?

Anymore though, today, you don't necessarily have to follow the rules of the common practice period in regards to counterpoint. I would recommend, since you are wanting to make your countermelody satisfying to the ear, is for you to just compose the countermelody over the melody and harmony. This is really the only way that you can ensure that the countermelody is in concordance with your harmony and melody. If the cm sounds like it is out of place - than rewrite it. If the cm clashes with the harmony - than rewrite it. The best way to learn what works and what doesn't is to just do it - who knows, you may actually like that which clashes against the rules of the Common practice period.