I am a Junior...

Hi all! I am a Junior in High School, and I have ambitions. I want to become a Composition Professor or Choral Director at University Level.

(Maybe get a Composition Degree and run a Professional Choir on the side? I don't know. I WOULD like to be both... but the odds of that happening are slim, and I've got about a year to decide. Yikes!)

So, my question to the masses is this: what should I go for in terms of degree?

1. Opinion on Conservatory? (keeping in mind, I will end up teaching Composition or being a Choral Director at a College at some point, I promise you, it will happen, even if I die trying)

2. Opinion on Degree? (go for Composition? Music Education?)

3. Opinion on Doctoral Studies? (Go STRAIGHT for the PhD? Get a Masters and come back later?)

4. Opinion on WHAT I should be doing right now as a Junior to BETTER prepare myself for my future. Entering contests? Getting more performances? etc...

Background info:

I recently had one of my pieces published.

I am 2nd Chair Texas All-State for Bass I (the 2nd most competitive state in the country)

I am 1st place NATS winner for High School and College.

I have been taking piano for 9 years.

I am good at piano.

I recently got a 5 on my AP Music Theory Test.

There isn't much, at least vocally, that I cannot do. (My range is G2-G4, I am a Baritone. So, my extremes are not Extraordinarily strong)

And, I am taking Composition lessons currently from Dr. Cox at Dallas Baptist University.

The most important thing you can do is keep writing. All the degrees in the world won't help you as much as a strong portfolio. A composition degree from a music school will not do squat for you once you graduate, but it can offer you several benefits while you are studying: 1) it can expose you to a lot of new musical ideas, 2) it can help you begin to establish connections within the discipline, and 3) it can offer you opportunities to have your music performed--it is difficult to overstate the importance of this.

This should provide you with some direction when choosing a school. If you are hoping to get into film or stage scoring, go to a school in southern California or New York City. If not, location is not as critical. Rather, you want an opportunity to get your music heard by artists already well established in the field. In your case, look for a school with a well respected choral music department. Generally, size does matter. A school with many different vocal ensembles and choir directors will offer the most opportunities, although the downside is that in a large program you are more anonymous and will have greater competition in getting noticed.

I know of very few public school music educators who have much time to compose, so I don't recommend a music education degree unless you think you would enjoy leading a high school choral program. Keep in mind, there are some amazing high school music programs out there, and working in one of these can be very rewarding. Just be sure that your goal is to teach music rather than compose music.

I can't say whether or not you'd be better off going straight for your doctorate. I guess if you want to go straight from studying composition to teaching it in a college, that is the most direct route. But my suspicion is that the more publications and performances you have, the more respect and clout you will have. So I think what you should focus most on is getting your music written and then performed. Are you familiar with choral net? If not, check out their web site: Choir directory - ChoralNet . This link takes you to a list of choirs around the world. Start contacting them and ask if the directors would be willing to look over your music. You will be surprised how many of them will be interested.

As a general rule of thumb, the best way to get good at something is to keep doing it. Good luck with your composing and directing.

I want to become a Composition Professor or Choral Director at University Level.

All the degrees in the world won't help you as much as a strong portfolio. A composition degree from a music school will not do squat for you once you graduate...

Glenn,

Where Marivou's primary goal is an academic teaching position, the ONLY thing that will help are degrees. Currently you might find something that'll accept you with a Master's and a ton of killing experience, but more often than not it's "PHD or DMA required" ...

Music - Faculty Positions - HigherEdJobs.com

See!!

That said:

I have a great loathing and disrespect for "young" professors in the arts. What I mean is: I find it hard to believe some 26-year-old with the "qualifications" can teach something like Composition, or Jazz, or Photography... Just because they might have the necessary documents does not mean someone is skilled/prepared to actually teach in these fields.

I believe arts such as ours REQUIRE some actual life experience before you can fully be prepared to impart any learnings or knowledge to the next generation.

I went through this in my undergrad - being taught by kids, fresh out of UNT with Master's in jazz studies. They're experts at regurgitating their accumulated licks and tricks but are wholly worthless when it comes to actually teaching someone how to be creative and musical.

My advice to you, young Morivou: Graduate from high school. Get a Bachelor's. take a break, get a Master's. Take a LONG break - do your thing, write music, sing in choirs, travel the world, have a baby, buy a house, write more music, start a band, record a CD, live life....THEN, go get your DMA or PHD, and start teaching.

...

Conservatories, while being very good at music instructions, have a very big problem. It's that they encourage tradition, heritage, etc. In other words, they encourage the idea of the Canon of music. When I say canon, I mean the small body of works by Beethoven, Hadyn, Mozart and a few other composers that have written masterpieces good enough to enter the Canon of music. This makes for a few problems.

1. You might not get a good education of the performance of music.

Many professors in conservatories are stuck under a tradition of "Okay, So my teacher did it this way, and his teacher did it this way, and that guys teacher did it that way and that guys teacher was Beethoven, so this is the way it goes..." type mentality. This can degrade your ability in performance (and no, not in the skillful sense).

2. Tradition makes it very hard for some of these schools to bring about change.

Many conservatories will have the same curriculum and style for ever and ever and ever, usually based on the heritage or tradition of the school. Because they are stuck in this system or mentality it makes it really hard for them to bring about chance. Such as, per se, adding a new major, like Music Technology or something. And while the big conservatories may do this, most smaller ones probably will not.

So I would keep that in mind before going to a conservatory of music.

Oh... and Morivou! I lived only 30 mins from Dallas Baptist University!

The problems that Morgri state are true for many, although not all, conservatories. But that doesn't change the fact that these places, despite their limitations, are still the best place to get a music education. I don't know of any alternatives.

Of course, the best preparation is experience, trial and error. What conservatories do is force you to keep trying so you work your way through all the initial errors as quickly as possible. I wouldn't worry about being overly influenced by one professor's tastes and opinions. If you are a true composer, you will find your own voice. Just make sure that when you are writing you are writing to please yourself, not some professor. (True, that's easier said than done in college, but it's possible.)

As far as a Ph.D. goes, you don't have to make that decision now. One step at a time. Start with your undergraduate degree. If you complete that, then decide your next step, and so on.

"Glenn,

Where Marivou's primary goal is an academic teaching position, the ONLY thing that will help are degrees. Currently you might find something that'll accept you with a Master's and a ton of killing experience, but more often than not it's "PHD or DMA required" ..."

Of course all the ads in the Journal of Higher Education say that. Search committees always say they want doctorates. But a renown composer or performer--well established and respected within his or her field--will likely be welcomed by any music school worth its salt.

Of course all the ads in the Journal of Higher Education say that. Search committees always say they want doctorates. But a renown composer or performer--well established and respected within his or her field--will likely be welcomed by any music school worth its salt.

Of course...this kind of goes along with my second point. Take your time, accumulate some reallife actual experience. Perhaps the PHD is irrelevant for you by that time.

That is a good idea, Nico... I know lots of Choral Conductors who have PhDs in their field who also write. The question is whether I am GOOD enough to compose...

but,...

then I look at Rutter and I feel better about life. ;)

Congrats on another year completed of school! Now you just have to get ready for the next one :D

Haha. Will, you're funny. ;)

mhmmm. I agree with you. So, should I go to:

1. Masters in Choral Conducting (PhD later)

OR

2. Masters in Music Education, emphasis on Choral (PhD later)

?

That's the million dollar question...

I find it hard to believe some 26-year-old with the "qualifications" can teach something like Composition, or Jazz, or Photography... Just because they might have the necessary documents does not mean someone is skilled/prepared to actually teach in these fields.

I believe arts such as ours REQUIRE some actual life experience before you can fully be prepared to impart any learnings or knowledge to the next generation.

I went through this in my undergrad - being taught by kids, fresh out of UNT with Master's in jazz studies. They're experts at regurgitating their accumulated licks and tricks but are wholly worthless when it comes to actually teaching someone how to be creative and musical.

My advice to you, young Morivou: Graduate from high school. Get a Bachelor's. take a break, get a Master's. Take a LONG break - do your thing, write music, sing in choirs, travel the world, have a baby, buy a house, write more music, start a band, record a CD, live life....THEN, go get your DMA or PHD, and start teaching.

...

What? No.

Teaching ability doesn't always rest on "life experience" or anything you mentioned. Some people just... can teach. So w/e. Do what you want C.

Just because they might have the necessary documents does not mean someone is skilled/prepared to actually teach in these fields.

Yeah, so those kids better not even think of teaching anything until they're old enough (like 60, at LEAST.) Who knows how they'll actually gather experience by NOT TEACHING, but I sure don't want those damn kids teaching "art" or somesuch.

mhmmm. I agree with you. So, should I go to:

1. Masters in Choral Conducting (PhD later)

OR

2. Masters in Music Education, emphasis on Choral (PhD later)

?

That's the million dollar question...

My vote is for Music Ed, simply because of the exposure to 'teaching' which is what you'll eventually do later in life, right? Or not?

If you hate the idea of teaching, then go with Conducting. But if you think you'll ever 'teach' formally (be it high school, college, etc), that teaching degree will open so many more doors.

Yeah, so those kids better not even think of teaching anything until they're old enough (like 60, at LEAST.) Who knows how they'll actually gather experience by NOT TEACHING, but I sure don't want those damn kids teaching "art" or somesuch.

Yeah, I have to agree with Jessome on this one. I know it's a shock to the conscience, but there are valid ways of gaining experience to teach at the university level that don't have anything to do with teaching at the university level (a real shocker, I know). Teach at a high school, be a tutor, go play gigs, write music, get it programmed/published, write articles for music journals, perform an Ethnomusicological study, write a book about performing, composing, Ethno, etc.

I love my undergrad comp teacher like an older brother/mentor, I'm glad he's teaching... but he landed his job almost straight out of Cornell's PHD program and was lucky to get it (self-professed, I'll add). The problem isn't that he's young, it's that there were no other ways he could manage to make enough money doing what he wanted to do full time (compose), so a university position was 'a fallback', a Plan B EVERY COMPOSER pretends not to have but eventually most come to rely on.

Let's face it, there are no jobs for music professors to work at 'full time' to gain the kind of experience they should have by the time they're teaching at the academic level AND bring in enough income to support themselves. Let's not confuse THAT with letting an academic position be considered 'career experience' and treat that as perfectly fine.. it's not, but those are the breaks.

So, choral conducting degree is mostly for "professional" conducting? Like as a resident conductor for a city symphony etc... ? I am just trying to get it straight. haha.

So, choral conducting degree is mostly for "professional" conducting? Like as a resident conductor for a city symphony etc... ? I am just trying to get it straight. haha.

To keep this really simple...

Yep.

Ahh... ok then.

I would definitely go for a Masters in Music Education emphasis on Choral Singing... then I would worry about doctorates later on, not right now. lol.

SO, that being said... Can I minor in Voice with my Bachelor?

Nah, gotta agree with robin. I'd rather a real artist teach art than someone who learned a lot about art over the past few years...

But it's not a black or white thing, obviously.

I was being sarcastic. Age discrimination is nonsense, specially when it comes to art. Hell I'd even say that "more experience" tends to make people rigid in positions that may as well not favor any pedagogic endeavor. IE, people get comfortable and think that having lived a lot means they magically know how to get art "right," and that's nonsense and could as well make them inflexible or dogmatic. I hate people who think they have scraggy solved when in reality they just got tired of trying to look for possible answers, and that's what age often does to people.

Also, what's a "real artist" again?

Age discrimination is nonsense, specially when it comes to art.

Hell I'd even say that "more experience" tends to make people rigid in positions that may as well not favor any pedagogic endeavor. IE, people get comfortable and think that having lived a lot means they magically know how to get art "right," and that's nonsense and could as well make them inflexible or dogmatic. I hate people who think they have scraggy solved when in reality they just got tired of trying to look for possible answers, and that's what age often does to people.

That's true, but it also means they have likely covered similar territory. Given two composers in the same vein, the one that saw the previous generations first-hand, maybe even played with em whatever, have insight into the history, the first-run theories, etc... For example, I respected the opinion of the guy who came into my combo who was a pianist in Ornette's mad-early combos much more than the upstart, NOCCA and UNO educated pianist-leader, even if they said the same things. Sure, it's ageism, but it's also respect for a better portfolio.

Also, what's a "real artist" again?

Touche. Relativism and all that.

But I can't deny that there are to me "realer" artists... And I mean, some of it definitely is the crass "selling out" concept, and some of it's hero worship, and a lot of things that musically may not make sense, but nevertheless color my opinion.

And maybe it's cuz I went to a school that didn't focus on music, but I respected the professors, both in music and less "arty" fields, that were "better," not necessarily with the better resumes. And they tended to be older than adjuncts... (though of course not always: computer music, ethnomusicology, and fundamentals of research)

I dunno, you're right, it shouldn't be a part of it, but doesn't mean it isn't.

"more experience" tends to make people rigid in positions that may as well not favor any pedagogic endeavor

I relate that to 'less' experience, actually. The less people know, the more they will cling to certain information they 'know' to be true while forsaking anything that contradicts that truth...

people get comfortable and think that having lived a lot means they magically know how to get art "right," and that's nonsense and could as well make them inflexible or dogmatic

This, remarkably, isn't age-specific. :)

I hate people who think they have scraggy solved when in reality they just got tired of trying to look for possible answers...

Me too.

... and that's what age often does to people.

And are you "tired of trying to look for possible answers" to why people do this, because like I said, this is not a condition that is age-specific.

Morivou-

May I offer my additional 2 cents.

Go for the degree that prepares you to be the best all around musician. If you can get a Sacred Music degree with emphasis in composition and organ that would be an excellent choice. You can get the education credits after you receive your BA or BM. As I told you in my pm, learning the organ will open up your opportunities tremendously for church positions. So you could for a few years get this degree or something along these lines (say a BM in choral/organ with coursework in composition or opportunities to write) and then earn education credits and earn a MA in composition while you have a church job.

Don't worry if you are good enough for a composition program - just show your stuff to professors, performers and be sure to write for a variety of ensembles. One thing I will tell you, if you want to get into a Masters program in composition you need to have a sizeable orchestral piece in your portfolio. The beauty again of a sacred music job is it can inspire you to write a nice oratorio with full orchestra but for actual performance you can have a reduced version - and guess what having these two will strengthen your portfolio!!!!

Now there are opportunities OTHER than the church - though it still can serve as a nice part-time job while you focus more on choral conducting and composition. I am very glad to hear you have good keyboard skills - you will be a far less frustrated choral director!

As for time to do this - about 8 years, 6 if you wok very hard, smart and passionately. After that period you will want to take a break from school. But that will be fine - you'll be in your mid 20's and a prime candidate for many positions.

Also, after getting your MA, as others have said, you can just take a nice desk job and set a time limit - say 2 years - and maintain just a small music gig or teach a student or two on the side. I know of an Oberlin grad who did that before returning to Peabody to go on the PhD path and he said it was one of the best things he did because it reminded him how much he wanted to make music his profession.

I have given you a ton of stuff, if there is one lesson to take from what everyone is saying is this (and at 43 I have learned the hard way):

The worst thing you could do now is stand around hesitating and second guessing yourself out of timidity and fear - trust me, that tactic in the long term leads to rue and bitterness.