Help... Is there any point in (me) being original?

I'm going on a vent here. I'll put a TLDR at bottom if you must, but I'm still summarizing by a lot; I'd really appreciate your time if you can spare it.

I'm in music school for composition. I've known I wanted to compose professionally for a few years now. But my line of thought basically stopped there. I didn't really know what kind of music I wanted to write, except that I knew I liked writing image pieces. Things about nature, conflict, emotions, whatever, and I had a great spirit for video games, so I figured I would go into video games. I still do, sort of, but my musical senses have since broadened. I got into jazz more and more in high school, more on that later.

Then college, and instead of feeling more free to write because my skills were growing, I felt more oppressed into doing one particular thing. It's sort of been that way for a year... more on that later too. I guess I didn't consider this is a classical music school, well, like almost any other one in the world... so instead of being taught skills about writing music that I could then take to writing the kind of music I grew up with and love, I'm being molded into a classical composer. I don't even like classical music that much. Not like, "hey guys let's go practice that fun strauss excerpt! hurr!" I like the way it sounds, but not how it feels, if that makes any sense... now mind you, I can't say I'm not glad to have received some traditional training, because it's made my writing much better already, and I want to be the most informed musician possible... just not a "Western art musician".

So what I did was, I started taking jazz classes. I thought, "hey, I don't have to be a cookie cutter classical comper. I like jazz, and more importantly, I can take jazz influence and put it in my music. The more education the better! hurr!" Which is true, and those classes have also helped a lot. But as it turns out, jazz is even more structured and cookie cutter than classical. Jazz fans go to concerts expecting some hoppy tunes and a bunch of soloing and not a whole lot of actual composition involved. Classical goers have no idea what to expect out of a new piece. These are generalizations, but I would say not inaccurate. So the assignments I did for my jazz classes sounded the same as everyone else's, because that's what the standard is... the tune, walking bass, swing drums, piano comping, some soloing, big deal. I probably couldn't even tell my own pieces apart from the rest, if I didn't have them memorized, and every player plays the damn melody differently anyway. The way I see it, the composer doesn't have enough control over the music in jazz, so his individuality is sort of flattened. I have too much to say to try to say it like that.

So what am I going to do? Neither of the programs at this school, probably any school, are letting me do what I really want. Or so I thought! I told my comp professor in my first lesson this semester about the album I wrote this past summer which was essentially my return to the music I love making, or some of it anyway, after a year of academic composing. He was surprisingly warm to the idea of putting some of these pieces on stage to fulfill the performance requirement of my major. I told him they're not really the type of thing to be performed live... but he said we can work it out, and I said I'm not sure I want to do that, so I'll just write a piece that can actually be performed BUT I'll do it the way I like, so I don't feel boxed in. So that was the deal and I was happy about it.

However... doesn't writing music for a performance already box you in? I mean, I know how to do it, in case I want or need one. But a lot of the time I just write for midi instruments, like all the techno artists and old school game composers do/did. So I don't need to worry about going to find a sitar and a panpipes player. And even then, it's very difficult to on-stage recreate all the sonic intricacies of a beautiful recording... and besides, the recording process is a compositional element in itself.

TLDR: SO HERE'S THE PROBLEM! I want to make my own music, as pure and undiluted as it will be. I want people to hear that music, and I don't care how. Is it worthwhile even bothering to do so, or should I give up and "sell out" by writing performance pieces/jazz lead sheets/commercial jingles/anything that might be more commercially viable? Would that music even be as good as if I just wrote what I wanted or would it pale in comparison?

My two cents: You do what you do. Its a simple statement, BUT, its perhaps the best advice one can give. No longer do you have to subscribe to writing in the style of X composer. Nor do you have to compose music that fits to the modern standard of unfettered experimentation. You write what you want to write and how you want to write it... its that simple. Only thing you have to do is provide a reason for why you chose to write something the way you do. Back up your statements... its that simple. If you start writing what you want to write, your own sound will emerge after time - its not something that one just automatically arrives at. Its a gradual refinement that comes in time - and that is something is greatly attested to in all genres of music. Look at the earliest songs of any band in rock and roll and compare those to the later songs - youll see a difference, etc. Eventually, in response to your last question of commercial viability and quality of music, your music will be heard based on your own drive to get it heard. If you just write and do nothing to seek out performers or *markets* for your music... then no, there will be no commercial profit - you're not just handed a silver platter for that latest string quartet you penned last month. I hope that offers some good advice.

WAHHHHHH I DONT WANNA LEARN STUFFFFFF WHY CANT THEY TEACH ME ONLY STUFF I LEIK!!!!!!!!

For real. You don't learn how to write in your first-year classes, you learn the history, the backings, the overgeneralizations. In fact, it sounds like you're in harmony I, wondering why it's so "basic." If you think you can handle it, aim for courses in the 300-600 range if you want to get out of "boring" stuff.

Please don't reply if you're going to patronize me, thanks. I'm not complaining about being bored or not having enough to do.

In the time it took you to write that post you could have educated yourself a bit more on why or why not you need to learn certain things.

Look, it's a big world out there, and no one has time for your *feelings*. If it's one thing no one gives a crap about it's your feelings. Making emotionally "informed" decisions is probably the most childish thing a person can do, not to mention one of the most detrimental things a person can do.

So hey, you've been in college for, what? A YEAR? I wanted to transfer to IndianaU after one semester at my undergrad school. Like you, I was being a whiney brat, I was annoyed by Fraterniculture. But then I stop whining for a few minutes to realize that whining about transferring wouldn't do anything, so I went back to being happy to be a in a top 10 school and did my best to learn everything I could and kick donkey.

TLDR: Whining gets you nowhere. I'd hate to break it to you, and I know you think you're so wise and learned at the ripe old age of 19, but you don't know anything.

Yeah, what the hell, you people need to chill. No need to make an donkey out of yourself.

I think you are over complicating the situation. I really don't see why you are unhappy, I mean, there are a lot of really famous composers who were taught to compose in a certain style, and shifted into their own signature right after they got out. It's your life, live it the way you want to. Compose music the way you want to. Be happy.

Kremlin, you're a dick.

Gamma, you're probably right. But I also want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth, you know? School isn't just free learning. If I'm spending four years and fifty grand on this whole ordeal, isn't it reasonable to try to make the best of it?

Kremlin, you're a dick.

Gamma, you're probably right. But I also want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth, you know? School isn't just free learning. If I'm spending four years and fifty grand on this whole ordeal, isn't it reasonable to try to make the best of it?

No need to be belligerent, I'm pretty much right - the truth hurts.

BTW: Why are you paying for school? For someone with marginal skills in a very competitive field (a field with certain outcomes for people who whine instead of work), going into 50k of debt for a music degree (and not engineering or computer science) is kind of stupid. College is expensive, you don't go to college if they're not funding you. Period.

Krem, want to give advice people will actually listen too, learn to communicate the advice better. For a guy with so much experience, you seem to forget how you say something tends to matter more than what you say.

Welcome to reality Lord. In life, we do a lot of junk we hate, but it needs to be done, because we got bills to pay. If it was up to me, I would sit outside smoking and eating oranges, but it isn't. The important thing here is to find the balance between your obligation and what you want to do.

You want to write your own music, do it on your own time. Nothing is really stopping you from doing that. But when someone in charge of you (academically, professionally, whateverly) ask you to do something, you have the obligation to do it, regardless if you like it or not. Why? Because it's how the world works. You do what needs to be done in order to be able to do what you want to do.

That line of reasoning is hard for idealist to accept. I'm not asking you to give up your dream, but to be realistic, because you still need to graduate. After graduation you will still need to eat. Life isn't doing what you want all the time, a lot of the time it's doing what you have to do. Keep that in mind, and you'll go far.

One more thing. You won't get your money worth if your education during college is just what you do in the classroom. The real advantage of undergrad and grad school is that you are around many people with similar interest. Talking to people in your major, using the free resources at your library, simply living the college life, that is where you will get your true education. The rest is just training.

Music in College, especially that of a composition degree, is designed to get you out of your comfort zone and writing stuff you might not like, for a good reason. It expands your ability to write. Listen to game and film music today. They are beginning to utilize many of the same things they are going to teach you in college. If you want to write the same style and not learn anything because you don't like classical music, then you are in the wrong major.

College is a place to experiment, learn, etc... You should be extremely happy with the chance you are getting because once you are in the real world, it won't be like that.

Krem, want to give advice people will actually listen too, learn to communicate the advice better. For a guy with so much experience, you seem to forget how you say something tends to matter more than what you say.

Welcome to reality Lord. In life, we do a lot of junk we hate, but it needs to be done, because we got bills to pay. If it was up to me, I would sit outside smoking and eating oranges, but it isn't. The important thing here is to find the balance between your obligation and what you want to do.

You want to write your own music, do it on your own time. Nothing is really stopping you from doing that. But when someone in charge of you (academically, professionally, whateverly) ask you to do something, you have the obligation to do it, regardless if you like it or not. Why? Because it's how the world works. You do what needs to be done in order to be able to do what you want to do.

That line of reasoning is hard for idealist to accept. I'm not asking you to give up your dream, but to be realistic, because you still need to graduate. After graduation you will still need to eat. Life isn't doing what you want all the time, a lot of the time it's doing what you have to do. Keep that in mind, and you'll go far.

One more thing. You won't get your money worth if your education during college is just what you do in the classroom. The real advantage of undergrad and grad school is that you are around many people with similar interest. Talking to people in your major, using the free resources at your library, simply living the college life, that is where you will get your true education. The rest is just training.

cry moar why dont ya

Well here's my thing. I went to a school nonranked for music. Yet I wrote in everything from the rock-mentality pseudominimalism that a lot of froshies use (dude, it's so lame that you can't have power chords in harmony!!!!) to 12-tone to 80s fusion to 00s jazz-metal to purer minimalism to discrete circuit music... So I never felt boxed in -- I'd bring my current interests to the table.

My orchestration course was a good example. While the one other kid was taking his background, more romantic music, as his cues, I was taking my background as mine.

Young people confuse schooling with education. Schooling gets you a degree, which might get you a job in academia at some level. It might improve your chances in some commerical ventures but...

In the real world, business folks only care about what you can do (and how little you are willing to accept for it!).

Of course, in a perfect world, there is significant overlap with education and schooling--and "what you want to do" and what you will do! But not always.

You would be well served to get a rounded musical education--classical, jazz, solid compostion, orchestration, etc... As painfull as it might be, it is the definition of well rounded. Don't let the "schooling" aspects deter you--bad instructors, obligatory pointless courses (or so they seem to you now!). Course to make you an informed citizen and all that rot (so you can watch your vote get ignored! Yay!..but I digress...).

Tangentially addressing other issues, in my experience the people who succeed in the arts (and most other areas) are driven by their personal vision, fantasy, and drive. Rarely do they stop and lament the world--they are to busy making manifest their gifts.

Follow their example. The rest is a waste of your time. And as you will find out, you don't have as much of it as you might think!...

Well rounded in music...

If you want to maximize your chances of getting a job, watch a lot of TV, lift heavy weights, and practice smiling excessively--hello $8.00 an hour at some warehouse or McDonalds...

If you want to get a "good" job, learn Chinese and civil engineering and fly to China.

In fact, now that I think of it, jobs and music are about as rare as, say jobs in astronomy or archaeology, etc...

So, eat or art.

Regardless of the goal that Lord is trying to achieve with this post.. several people hear could seriously benefit from communication classes even more than than the musical training they may or may not be receiving.

The guy said it was a rant. 'nuff said. Blowing off some steam (and in a non-directional manner rather than towards any one person) like he did is a good and healthy thing to do.

EVERYONE vents (call it whine or whatever you like to). So please try to add a little humility to some of these replies when supposedly giving some positive advice to the thread starter.

You want to write your own music, do it on your own time. Nothing is really stopping you from doing that. But when someone in charge of you (academically, professionally, whateverly) ask you to do something, you have the obligation to do it, regardless if you like it or not. Why? Because it's how the world works. You do what needs to be done in order to be able to do what you want to do.

I strongly disagree. That's how the military works, but hopefully not life for all of us, and especially not making art. Just accepting anything an authority figure tells you without question is one of the most destructive and potentially dangerous ideologies out there. Sure, it means you probably lead a more comfortable life if you always do that and sure, there are always lots of times where we -will- do that, but surely that's not all there can be to it -especially- when it comes to something like writing music. Call me an naive idealist - but I'd rather be that than a cynical ultra-pragmatist.

If I taught composition I'd -expect- students to complain when they're displeased with something, I'd -expect- them to doubt the curriculum, to question the teachers' authorities, and possibly to leave the school when they feel it doesn't offer them what they are looking for.

Studying composition is -not- schooling for a "job". It's about a rather personal examination of what it means to write music and what skills may be helpful for it. It will never teach you how to pay your bills. You'll have to pick that up somewhere else. Sure, you'll probably have to accept learning stuff that doesn't interest you for your own writing - up to a certain degree. But if it's all directed towards ways of composing that mean nothing at all to you and you fail to find any access to them, you may be better off quitting school altogether - or find a different school.

You can (and should) always attempt to make the school give you what you are looking for, and at the same time be ready to get into things from the school you are -not- looking for, but if both of those approaches have been stretched to their limits, then it's probably pointless to just learn the stuff they teach you "because you're supposed to". I'd generally find the latter a really dubitable reason to study anything art-related. Sure, when you're dealing with kids you sometimes have to tell them what's good for them because they can't really grasp the matter yet. But at college age, I'd expect people to be ready for that.

when i went to uni the answer to the question 'what the gently caress i'm gonna do with it?' was a nice ironic smile and very serious statement - 'you'll get an education'. no matter if you're a barber or a brick-layer, being educated gives you pleasure, of course, i'm not saying uni is all there is to education, god knows, i despised most of it and precisely because i wanted to learn something else than they provided me with, when i wanted to learn and experience something radically else, i quit it.

what should you do? just do it.

and to all who say 'no, follow the ''rule'' of the world' - blah and bang!

I think this thread has been sidetracked. People are talking about my experience at this university, when that was really just introduction to the question, which is (as the topic title even says), is there any point in writing original sounding music, or are people too set into listening and buying certain things?

when i went to uni the answer to the question 'what the gently caress i'm gonna do with it?' was a nice ironic smile and very serious statement - 'you'll get an education'. no matter if you're a barber or a brick-layer, being educated gives you pleasure, of course, i'm not saying uni is all there is to education, god knows, i despised most of it and precisely because i wanted to learn something else than they provided me with, when i wanted to learn and experience something radically else, i quit it.

what should you do? just do it.

and to all who say 'no, follow the ''rule'' of the world' - blah and bang!

How were you surprised by what you were learning? You people don't do very much research and reading do what? What could you possibly have been doing in a university that somehow came as a suckerpunch?

I think this thread has been sidetracked. People are talking about my experience at this university, when that was really just introduction to the question, which is (as the topic title even says), is there any point in writing original sounding music, or are people too set into listening and buying certain things?

Of course there's a point in trying to write good music. You could even boil it down to a marketplace sort of deal. After a product has been out there for a while, producers must fight to be innovative to create another product which will be economically viable.

1.How were you surprised by what you were learning?2. You people don't do very much research and reading do what? 3. What could you possibly have been doing in a university that somehow came as a suckerpunch?

1. No.

2. Night knife

3. Feathers on knife

I think some folk early on had the right idea - Ferk especially. Just write what you are into writing. Inevitably there will be a level of originality (read: personal perspective) to that music.

And don't be afraid to split your time between class assignments and your own work. Inevitably, they'll influence each other, and the fusion might also be original.

Perhaps above all, I've found the best way of staying "original" is to keep an open mind to ideas - particularly your own. Entertaining an idea well beyond its reasonable endpoint can lead to some startling solutions and captivating music.

I think as musicians we all need to make money by "selling out" eventually. So just do that if you have to make money, then on your free time compose the sort of music "you actually want to."

I think this thread has been sidetracked. People are talking about my experience at this university, when that was really just introduction to the question, which is (as the topic title even says), is there any point in writing original sounding music, or are people too set into listening and buying certain things?

I think this was the topic of my first thread. Long story short, don't worry about it and write what you think is cool.

I'm of the opinion that nothing is original all philisophically, but it doesn't affect how I write music in a practical sense. That I write music affected by concepts pioneered by other composers is a feedback loop that respects and diverges from what those pioneers sought, but never acts upon the composition itself.

________________________

especially when you're 6 beers deep and batman is fighting on the roof of the asylum and all there is to do is rock rock rock rock

Whoever is telling you 'originality' is what to strive for in music, or for that matter is the only 'valid approach' to writing music, doesn't understand the world of music today.

The Western Classical Tradition (to include the quagmire of styles in the 20th and 21st Centuries) accounts for less than a quarter of a percent of all the musical styles that exist in the world of music. It's a tiny dot in a gigantic bubble of one musical universe... and that bubble really only represents the music we know about. Furthermore, there is no line to be drawn now between one style and the next. Styles of music are always blending based on our growing knowledge of other music in the world of music.

What your teacher is likely attempting to do is have you grow and develop your own, distinct voice as a music artist. I do not agree with this approach in the academic study of music composition, quite frankly, because you are neither mature enough nor knowledgeable enough to be capable of creating this distinction so early as an artist. This comes with experience and practice, experimentation as a professional and independent study of musical styles AND the music of many cultures.

I don't have my own 'distinct' voice as an artist in the way that George Crumb or Igor Stravinsky would be said to have their own. I'm still fresh out of university study in composition, I've got a masters degree and recognize that I (at 29 years of age) do not have enough experience or knowledge in music to say I have truly created my own independent voice. I'm fine with that, I recognize that I have much still to learn on my own as a composer... mostly about myself and about the cultures and music all around me.

I personally don't agree with your instructor's approach, Skye. I think any curriculum that tries to manipulate the developmental cycle of ones' creativity and direct it to one specific, calculative end - in this case, the development of this distinction in your voice as an artist that only leads to constant frustration for you - is not an effective way to teach you how to be a composer. But many of us have been through this same frustration, for better or worse, and it may just be something you have to cope with as a composition student.

Just understand that what your composition instructor is doing is based on an assumption that you will be continuing your composition studies in masters and doctoral work. These programs look for this kind of 'distinction' in musical style. I liken it to teachers in public schools who teach the standardized test instead of the knowledge of the subject matter. In this case, you're being indoctrinated into the university system as a composer, being forced to learn material that is relevant to the system itself, not what you consider to be relevant to your ambitions as an artist.

Take what you can from your lessons and your instructor. Having an awareness of why you feel so frustrated with your experience may not provide much comfort, but at least you'll know why it frustrates you and may be able to change it one day. Hang in there.

To reiterate, and expand:

Write your music.

Learn the craft, hone your skills, acquire the tools, listen and learn.

Write music...write your music - conversely, choose to write something decidedly out of your scope of experience. Try it....do it all.

With time and work and experience and failure and success will come your sound.

Let it happen - write music you're proud of, in whatever venue you like; at the same time, don't shy away from trying things you don't know or like (you never know how they might affect/effect your voice)...

Just be patient and honest about your music and it will become something wholly individual and personal...

Dunno if any of that really applies to this discussion...