Help... Is there any point in (me) being original?

I was under the impression all this time you already had done all of that. Oh well.

Nope.

My biggest gripe for a while was that the state trumps the university in music education... which I still don't wholly agree with but I think 'some' of the reasons are valid.

Nope.

My biggest gripe for a while was that the state trumps the university in music education... which I still don't wholly agree with but I think 'some' of the reasons are valid.

Then move? That's the beauty of America. We have CHOICES :)

Then move? That's the beauty of America. We have CHOICES :)

Yep. Not going to move. I can stomach enough of it to get in and out with a certification and be done with paying for education in music, at least for now. :)

Yep. Not going to move. I can stomach enough of it to get in and out with a certification and be done with paying for education in music, at least for now. :)

You're a bitter young man

I pity you

Should have gone to ITT Tech and majored in...whatever it is they study

By the way, if you don't move you have no right to complain

in that case my reply is simple: All the composers I've mentioned have pieces uploaded here in various threads. Listen and make up your own mind. If the fact that these people make a living out of composing is not enough, then maybe you can be a judge on your own. (Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic or anything). There's no reason in me telling you that I am, indeed, good. What would you expect? ;)

No Nikolas, you don't understand. I'm on YOUR side.

Of course you're good, and that's what I meant.

I was simply adding... what I said to illustrate that if you're good at something someone can make money.

You're a bitter young man

I pity you

Cute.

Should have gone to ITT Tech and majored in...whatever it is they study

By the way, if you don't move you have no right to complain

I have every right to complain. It's the United States, the First Amendment grants me the right to Free Speech. If I move, say, to another country where there is no freedom of speech, THEN I'll have no right to complain. :D

That is not the mission of universities. Universities are NOT, I repeat, ARE NOT, vocational/technical institutes. They are institutes of HIGHER LEARNING. There's a difference guys. I don't go to a top school to earn my xxxxxx plumbing license.

Oke, but Skye is making a investment in going to this college. If he isn't prepared to make a living with the higher learning he is doing he can ask himself wether or not it's wise to invest in it. I belive Skye got the point I was making so that's good.

I promise if you forget about needing to be original, you can not help but be original. 

I haven't read all of the responses to this and so I assume you've already been given some excellent encouragement. I'm going to stray from that in my response.

Actually, it's been kind of a shitstorm. :D

But you give good advice, thanks. And welcome to YC.

YC has always been a scraggy storm. Young composers are irritable. Thank you for the welcome, I am certainly not new :)

YC has always been a scraggy storm. Young composers are irritable. Thank you for the welcome, I am certainly not new :)

Ah. I read your post count and figured you were new.

TLDR: SO HERE'S THE PROBLEM! I want to make my own music, as pure and undiluted as it will be. I want people to hear that music, and I don't care how. Is it worthwhile even bothering to do so, or should I give up and "sell out" by writing performance pieces/jazz lead sheets/commercial jingles/anything that might be more commercially viable? Would that music even be as good as if I just wrote what I wanted or would it pale in comparison?

Good stuff. I'm not going to tell you what you should do, but you could ask yourself what type of music-making makes you most happy. This isn't always so easy, but if there is a type of music that you enjoy making more than any other and you write that type, you are probably going to come up with music that is worthwhile to you. In this sense you would be writing good music. Others may not like it and others may call you a sellout, but in the end it's about what you get from the writing experience.

But as it turns out, jazz is even more structured and cookie cutter than classical. Jazz fans go to concerts expecting some hoppy tunes and a bunch of soloing and not a whole lot of actual composition involved. Classical goers have no idea what to expect out of a new piece. These are generalizations, but I would say not inaccurate. So the assignments I did for my jazz classes sounded the same as everyone else's, because that's what the standard is... the tune, walking bass, swing drums, piano comping, some soloing, big deal. I probably couldn't even tell my own pieces apart from the rest, if I didn't have them memorized, and every player plays the damn melody differently anyway. The way I see it, the composer doesn't have enough control over the music in jazz, so his individuality is sort of flattened. I have too much to say to try to say it like that.

I've actually never heard someone argue that jazz is too rigid before in my life. When you are taught jazz in an academic setting you quickly realize that it stems directly from the classical tradition, and on top of that it seems like it has its own set of "rules" to follow. And in most jazz ensemble recordings it's true that you'll have a main tune followed by one or more solo sections followed by a recap of the tune. However there are many unusual forms and so many unique ways to work out even the simplest of tunes that it's hard for me to imagine individuality being compromised. Just listen to the various voicings of great composers like Sammy Nestico, Thad Jones, Bob Brookmeyer, Gil Evans, Maria Schneider, Bill Holman, Duke Ellington... They all have such a distinct style/sound and a unique way of approaching jazz. Or maybe you're more into Ornette Coleman, or the "atonal" musings of Duane Tatro. Yes, the composer often leaves much up to the performers (though he can control all aspects of a composition if he so wishes), but I think a lot of the fun lies in hearing what others do with it. But a tightly woven piece is always going to have a distinct sound, no matter where the performers take it.

So what am I going to do? Neither of the programs at this school, probably any school, are letting me do what I really want.

What do you really want to do? I recently heard of a composer at Princeton who composes mostly rock music. Many composers focus on electro-acoustic works. Some are solely film composers. As long as you think it's possible to enhance your music with the techniques you can learn in an academic setting and you prove that you can apply what you learn to your compositions, then it shouldn't be a problem to go to school and write what you want. Maybe that's me being naive, but I've had great experiences so far and encountered all types of composers in academia who get along just fine. [i'm not implying that an academic study of music is the best way to go for everyone either, because it's not. You can become an excellent composer by observing and practicing your art, but it helps to have some sort of guidance, which is often in the form of college/grad school classes.]

However... doesn't writing music for a performance already box you in? I mean, I know how to do it, in case I want or need one. But a lot of the time I just write for midi instruments, like all the techno artists and old school game composers do/did. So I don't need to worry about going to find a sitar and a panpipes player. And even then, it's very difficult to on-stage recreate all the sonic intricacies of a beautiful recording... and besides, the recording process is a compositional element in itself.

If you compose for performers then you are likely to run into problems somewhere down the line. You have to compose for instruments you have available to you, yes, but I've never felt boxed in by this. And I love the experience of seeing/hearing my music performed live. However, you can certainly do amazing things in a studio that you can't replicate easily on stage (makes me think of the Beatles and Zero 7). Recording and mixing and composing with midi and samples, etc... Is this what you want to do? Sounds awesome, but a strict composition program may not be what you need in the end. Have you thought about audio engineering?

I...jazz is even more structured and cookie cutter than classical. Jazz fans go to concerts expecting some hoppy tunes and a bunch of soloing and not a whole lot of actual composition involved. Classical goers have no idea what to expect out of a new piece. These are generalizations, but I would say not inaccurate. So the assignments I did for my jazz classes sounded the same as everyone else's, because that's what the standard is... the tune, walking bass, swing drums, piano comping, some soloing, big deal. I probably couldn't even tell my own pieces apart from the rest, if I didn't have them memorized, and every player plays the damn melody differently anyway. The way I see it, the composer doesn't have enough control over the music in jazz, so his individuality is sort of flattened. I have too much to say to try to say it like that.

Tee hee...

I missed this.

I won't address it, but can only let you know Mr. Skye; unfortunately, you're sadly off target with this assessment, and suspect you could do with a bit more research ;)

I know it's weird to come at jazz from the outside, and can see how you could easily come to these conclusions - BUT, without immersing yourself in the idiom, you'll, unfortunately, never quite realize why.

:whistling:

I won't address it, but can only let you know Mr. Skye; unfortunately, you're sadly off target with this assessment, and suspect you could do with a bit more research ;)

I know it's weird to come at jazz from the outside, and can see how you could easily come to these conclusions - BUT, without immersing yourself in the idiom, you'll, unfortunately, never quite realize why.

With all due respect, I more or less knew I would receive some criticism from that, particularly from you. I think I know a little more than you think I do. I am a student, yes, but I think I've been immersed in the idiom enough to know what's up. All that I can say is, exceptions to the rule are still exceptions. By that, I mean, of course people are doing unique things and making themselves known for their individual voices - as with hip hop, country and avant-garde classical or anything else. It doesn't really change that I think the music is generally ________. And jazz is generally (read: statistically more often than not!) improvisation heavy which means less for the composer to create. You have to understand - I write every drum groove and bassline to the note. I write every voicing and every rhythm for each instrument that plays chords, and that's how I want it. That's just what I'm used to doing, so I just feel a little violated when people do it for me! You see what I'm going at?

I could, in fact, write every note and have the ensemble play it, but you don't often get people used to reading sheet music to the note who can also improvise well, because jazz players usually don't read verbatim and classical/session players may not be able to blow over chords. With all that said, if you have a solution or more advice, by all means. I hope this post doesn't come across as indignant; I'm really just explaining myself.

I'm not a jazz player, but I've always understood that in Jazz, the players are on an equal if not more important footing than the composer.

If you compose for performers then you are likely to run into problems somewhere down the line. You have to compose for instruments you have available to you, yes, but I've never felt boxed in by this. And I love the experience of seeing/hearing my music performed live. However, you can certainly do amazing things in a studio that you can't replicate easily on stage (makes me think of the Beatles and Zero 7). Recording and mixing and composing with midi and samples, etc... Is this what you want to do? Sounds awesome, but a strict composition program may not be what you need in the end. Have you thought about audio engineering?

You wrote good things in the previous paragraphs, thanks, but this one has the most response potential so I'll address it.

I guess this makes me a little bit self-centered, but as I said in my last post, I'm used to writing every note. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I realize I'm used to writing every sound in my compositions, meaning how it sounds recorded. I have specific sounds and atmospheres in my mind that I want people to hear without compromising anything during translation to stage. I don't/wouldn't mind having live people perform for me, so ideally I would just have any live instrumentalist available to play a track, which would then go into my piece. But because samples aren't yet even close to emulating live performers perfectly, so I sort of do what I can with what I have.

The short answer is yes, I prefer working with recordings - not necessarily midi and samples exclusively, just as opposed to live stage performance. I thought about going into studio engineering, but I also really appreciate well-written music, and I don't want to be just a techno artist or something that sounds great in recordings but whose writing isn't very interesting by itself. I figured hopefully I can learn both sides and then I'll really be smashing. Or so goes the master plan.

With all due respect, I more or less knew I would receive some criticism from that, particularly from you. I think I know a little more than you think I do. I am a student, yes, but I think I've been immersed in the idiom enough to know what's up.

Fair enough young grasshopper; however you could use a bit more immersion.

I DO understand your position, and why you would feel that - and, strictly speaking, in that very limited scope of "jazz" (I.e. jam session standards - bop, neo-wyntron-post-bop) you're kind-of right.

It's really had to explain...and I might not get very far right now. :pinch:

All that I can say is, exceptions to the rule are still exceptions. By that, I mean, of course people are doing unique things and making themselves known for their individual voices .... jazz is generally (read: statistically more often than not!) improvisation heavy which means less for the composer to create.

I think this is where you're perspective is a little skewed! It's not that there's less for the composer to create...it's just different things. What you're seeing as the exceptions have developed into the rule - long-gone are the days of playing over tin-pan alley tunes in smoky clubs. Jazz has evolved to the point where more and more the composition is the focus - a composition which incorporates improvised elements.

Rare is the jazz musician who isn't also well known as a composer.

You have to understand - I write every drum groove and bassline to the note. I write every voicing and every rhythm for each instrument that plays chords, and that's how I want it. That's just what I'm used to doing, so I just feel a little violated when people do it for me! You see what I'm going at?

I certainly do - and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be specific, and I think you'd be surprised at how much some composers put in their parts. I think some study of current trends in jazz composition would have you find that even small group jazz is becoming more intricate and arranged.

I could, in fact, write every note and have the ensemble play it, but you don't often get people used to reading sheet music to the note who can also improvise well, because jazz players usually don't read verbatim and classical/session players may not be able to blow over chords.

:pinch: Jazz players (worth their salt) should be highly skilled readers.... Give us a chance, you'll be surprised. it's a VERY importand aspect to the music. While you're right, "legit" players generally shy away from playing changes and improvising, we simply MUST be able to read...otherwise, you don't work - plain and simple.

With all that said, if you have a solution or more advice, by all means. I hope this post doesn't come across as indignant; I'm really just explaining myself.

Not indignant, I know where you're coming from...I hope I'm not coming across as rude either. I just know, with your current outlook on the jazzical realm, that you could use a bit of hand-holding. ;)

Crap - I didn't mean for this to be so long. SKYE - if you have any questions, or want more advices/listening just let me know....

Stay tuned...my next podcast will focus on the compositional elements in jazz/improvised music.