A Discussion About Tonal and Atonal Music

What Charlie is saying is simply that there can be sounds where the pitch is harder to discern or starts to approach white noise, in which case our brains can't process the pitch the same way we can with other instruments due to its acoustic properties. It doesn't mean there's no pitch. It's like saying that just because we can't see ultra-violet it doesn't exist.

So long as something is vibrating, it'll have a pitch. Regardless if we can or not hear it, discern it, or anything.

Hence calling an instrument non-pitched is nonsense. Indeterminate is a better word for it, as it's what the actual effect is.

:thumbsup:

What Charlie is saying is simply that there can be sounds where the pitch is harder to discern or starts to approach white noise, in which case our brains can't process the pitch the same way we can with other instruments due to its acoustic properties. It doesn't mean there's no pitch. It's like saying that just because we can't see ultra-violet it doesn't exist.

So long as something is vibrating, it'll have a pitch. Regardless if we can or not hear it, discern it, or anything.

Hence calling an instrument non-pitched is nonsense. Indeterminate is a better word for it, as it's what the actual effect is.

With that argument, a cold front has intermediate pitch. Speaking 100% technically, anything that causes a pressure wave through the air is sound and therefore has pitch. That argument renders the term "pitch" completely useless. The connotation of the term "pitch" is that the sound carries a frequency which is distinct and discernible to the human ear as a specific "note".

Anyway, that's what non-pitched percussion are called. It's not going to change.

Hence calling an instrument non-pitched is nonsense. Indeterminate is a better word for it, as it's what the actual effect is.

Yeah, I second what Peter said and will add... if a clarinet can sound in tune when playing the same pitch as another clarinet, it stands to reason that if a drum is tuned to the same "pitch" as another drum, it will be "in tune." The problem is that the two drums may still -NOT- be in tune. I wonder why that is... perhaps it's due to the fact that a non-pitched percussion instrument - which CAN approximate a pitch by tuning certain prominent sources of sound like the drum head or something - is a timbre-based instrument. To tune a non-pitched instrument to another non-pitched instrument relies on matching all the acoustic features of one instrument to the other. This is not the case with a pitch-based instrument. You can have two clarinets that are designed differently play "in tune," and hardly anyone is going to know the difference. The pitch is a prominent feature of the instrument. The prominent tone producing the pitch is clear and distinct.

To call a non-pitched instrument one of "indeterminate pitch" essentially suggests that there is a "prominent tone among all other tones produced by the instrument" when the margin of difference between the pitch of a clarinet and the "pitch" of a drum is drastically different. More tones are sounding at more marginal levels with the "tone" you hear from the drum to the point that calling that tone a "pitch" is contrary to the mechanics of the instrument - tuning that tone to another drum may or may not tune the instrument. That's why you don't see "Etude -in C- for Snare Drum" or something foolish like that. Sure, it's a difference of degrees, and the more marginal the tones become the closer you get to white noise, but we don't refer to white noise as having a "pitch" - we just call it noise or sound. To suggest a "pitch" is present is misleading because it ignores the fact that the sound is not produced from the "prominent tone" but rather from "all the OTHER tones" present. The other tones are the more important factor, not the "prominent tone" on a non-pitched instrument that you appear to think of as a "pitch." It makes no sense to call that "tone" a pitch.

Coincidentally, I have a few friends with perfect pitch who can discern the pitch of 'indeterminately pitched' instruments. I've ever gone so far as to knock on various surfaces and objects and asked the pitch. Granted, I don't have perfect pitch so I'd have no idea if they were telling the truth but given the certainty and speed they can give me when I play notes on the keyboard, I'm guessing they're probably right. So, even 'indeterminate pitch' is a bit of a misnomer.

Okay guys, let me say something.

Atonal is something in which a piece does not "lean" twords or based on a note (editing my first comment) and also, atonal has no real basis of what chords you should or should not use, or any form needed or any order, ect.

Tonal music has a form, rules, and leans to or is based on one note.

Of course, there's Bitonal, Polytonal, Ditonal, and a lot more, but that's not the point of this thread now is it?

If you were to say something about composers that are "tonal" or "atonal" or somewhat in the middle, here are a few:

Tonal:

Mozart

Bach

Atonal:

Messian

Stravinsky

So, to sum it up, the more modern day you get, the more atonal composers, and the farther back you go, the more tonal. Until you go really far back, like 1300s, 1400s, 1500s, then you get some weird stuff, but it's not atonal.

If a piece of music makes an old person cringe, then, probably it's atonal. ;)

Heklaphone

I am going to make a point of showing this post back to you fifteen years from now and you will vomit instinctively for hours on end, 'k?

re@indefinite pitch: IMO almost everything has a central pitch. I say this on the sole basis that for almost any sound you can make it can be adjusted higher or lower. Especially a snare drum or a triangle, or even clacking two drum sticks together or pounding on drywall. Maybe one snare drum is ambiguous, but if you put two together of different sizes, you could feasibly tune them to perfectly resemble an ordinary tonal interval. If you can hear a difference as an interval (which I can between two toms, snares, etc), they must have some definite central pitch. The only exception being the majority of frequencies present are more spread, making the center more ambiguous. Such as a large gong - it is just such a complex sound that it would be impossible to identify a single pitch as central. The snares on a snare drum also have this masking effect - remove the snares and you'll likely hear a very definite pitch from the drum itself.

Percussion instruments like drums have tones, many of them. Hearing "pitch" on such an instrument is likely a matter of association. Calling the instrument an "indeterminate pitched" instrument suggests that a pitch is being produced, that a pitch is even necessary for the instrument to produce a sound. But we know that the defining element of a non-pitched percussion instrument is its timbre, not the pitch we might associate with a tone among many other tones we happen to hear when the instrument sounds.

Isn't the defining element (if such a thing exists) of any instrument the timbre? A clarinet is a clarinet due to it timbre -- and it's range, but indeterminately pitched insturments are indeterminate within a range.

Isn't the defining element (if such a thing exists) of any instrument the timbre? A clarinet is a clarinet due to it timbre -- and it's range, but indeterminately pitched instruments are indeterminate within a range.

It goes without saying that all instruments have timbre. All instruments have tones, too, and not just the tone of the pitch sounding on a pitched instrument. We could go in circles making lots of claims that "any tone is a pitch" or "all instruments have timbre." While it's true that any tone has the potential to be a pitch, it's simply nonsensical to say that a non-pitched percussion instrument produces a pitch.

Definition of Pitch from the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

11. (Music, other) Musica. the auditory property of a note that is conditioned by its frequency relative to other notes high pitch low pitchb. an absolute frequency assigned to a specific note, fixing the relative frequencies of all other notes. The fundamental frequencies of the notes A-G, in accordance with the frequency A = 440 hertz, were internationally standardized and accepted in 1939 See also concert pitch [1] international pitch

Given the above, particularly 11a, to say a non-pitched percussion instrument is "indeterminately pitched" is saying the pitch is somehow conditioned by its frequency relative to other pitches produced by the instrument. This is not necessarily possible (to have multiple pitches produced by, say, a snare drum) without stopping to tune the drum head to produce a higher tone. Then, THAT TONE is the ONLY TONE produced that could be mistaken for "pitch" in this context.

Simply put, a pitched instrument produces, or can produce, a multitude of pitches when performed such that the frequency of each pitch is conditioned to its relative pitches - i.e. tuning a pitched instrument. The general idea here is that non-pitched percussion instruments are distinctly different from other instruments because of their timbre, not because they produce a pitch. I just hope people will stop equating pitch to tone. All pitches are tones, but not all tones are pitches.

Quite the opposite, "non-pitched" percussion seems to be nonsensical to me. Just because people historically haven't cared about/been able to hear the pitch doesn't mean it doesn't have one. We are talking about our ideals for these terms, not just what people commonly say, am I right?

Besides, this was originally brought up to show there is no such thing as atonal music, if you adopt a literal meaning of the word. As you said your self, "non-pitched" percussion produce tones - therefore they do not lack tones, and cannot be called non-toned (atonal).

And what do you say about glissandi, which are made up of many unspecified pitches? Or chordal instruments such as the Shō, which can only produce multiple tones? Non-pitched?

Quite the opposite, "non-pitched" percussion seems to be nonsensical to me.  Just because people historically haven't cared about/been able to hear the pitch doesn't mean it doesn't have one.  We are talking about our ideals for these terms, not just what people commonly say, am I right?

Tone =/= Pitch. What you hear as a "pitch" is merely a recognizable tone among other tones that your ear associates with a pitch. You can call it whatever you want, but if we're calling a snare drum a pitched instrument (indeterminate, w/e) then you need to connect the dots. Why does this "pitch" not sound like a pitch in the way a clarinet's pitch sounds like a pitch? And when we reduce all of that down, we return to the logical statement that all pitches are tones but not all tones are pitches. Yes, there is a difference.

Besides, this was originally brought up to show there is no such thing as atonal music, if you adopt a literal meaning of the word. As you said your self, "non-pitched" percussion produce tones - therefore they do not lack tones, and cannot be called non-toned (atonal).

And what do you say about glissandi, which are made up of many unspecified pitches?  Or chordal instruments such as the Shō, which can only produce multiple tones?  Non-pitched?

Glissandi are a series of pitches. I'm not familiar with instruments like the Sho, but I imagine if the pitch-producing tones are clear enough, they are pitched instruments. The definition I previously posted pretty much says that if a pitch is discernible through tones conditioned around the source (tone) of the pitch, a pitch has been produced. This clearly doesn't happen in non-pitched instruments like the snare or bass drum. It doesn't matter what you think you hear, or how you associate tones with pitches... a pitch is more unique than tone. A tone can be any resulting frequency... while a pitch is conditional based on referential tones and their conditioned state on the source-tone of the pitch.  

Tone =/= Pitch. What you hear as a "pitch" is merely a recognizable tone among other tones that your ear associates with a pitch.

Same with any instrument?

Same with any instrument?

No, not the same as any other instrument. I'm talking about non-pitched percussion.

Tone =/= Pitch. What you hear as a "pitch" is merely a recognizable tone among other tones that your ear associates with a pitch.

What you said is true any time we hear a sound. Maybe not when the computer plays a sine tone, but even then the speaker is adding other pitches and coloring the sound.

What you said is true any time we hear a sound. Maybe not when the computer plays a sine tone, but even then the speaker is adding other pitches and coloring the sound.

We're speaking specifically about the tones produced by a drum or other non-pitched percussion instrument and whether we should call that tone "a pitch". Given what we have identified as "pitch" on musical instruments we say are "pitched instruments", there is clearly a difference. Furthermore, percussion instruments can share the same tone and still be out of tune with each other. The tuning of a drum is based on more timbrel aspects than the tone of the drum head. Even the difference in the drum sticks you use can have an affect on how the drum sounds.

When we acknowledge these factors, to say a percussion instrument has "indeterminate pitch" says nothing. If we're saying a non-pitched percussion instrument is producing a "pitch," (albeit indeterminately) what makes a percussion instrument any different than a wind, string, or brass instrument other than the "indeterminacy" of the supposed pitch? If we're saying all instruments are pitched, we're really saying there's less of a difference between the instrument families.

I could go on, but it's just to make the point that "pitch" doesn't even factor into the language of non-pitched percussion, and it shouldn't. Many Percussionists often laugh on the inside when people start talking about "pitch" on non-pitched percussion instruments. Many of us know, from working with these instruments (tuning them, replacing heads, etc.), that the tones you seem to be mistaking for "pitch" aren't really pitches at all. We refer to percussion instruments by the way they're made and the timbrel effects they produce, not the kind of tone (or what you're calling "pitch") they produce.

Even the pitched percussion instruments (xylophone, vibes, chimes, etc.) are referred to as woods and metals more frequently than highs and lows. Snares, Basses, and Toms are more commonly referred to as "skins," or even more often just "drums," than indeterminately pitched instruments because of how they're made and the timbres that define them. Compare this to brass instruments we refer to as high and low brass, woodwinds as high and low reeds, etc. The nomenclature of "pitch" just doesn't fit.

Why the heck is this still going on? :mellow:

Srsly.

brainfreeze

Yep, well this has been fun, but I'm closing the thread now.

If anyone wants to continue discussion from this thread, start a new one and link to the post in this one that you're discussing.