Creating a price structure for student films.

I launched a small company at my school to offer free film scoring to non-profit student films. We are starting to get requests, and I want to be prepared in case a group is making a film that is designed to make money or has an explicit budget for original music. What is a fair price structure for students writing music for student films?

Hi Aaron!

Since I'm about to be critical, I want to say first that your idea is a very noble and well-intentioned one.

The reason I have serious issues with it is because you're directly contributing to a general decrease in the pay scale for composers, which is caused by directors managing to get composers to work for less and less money (yay competition) which results in them getting the impression that our work is worth FAR less than what it actually is.

When it comes to rate surveys, they tend to be fairly few and far between, but either way you should be making money when you're scoring — even if (for a non-profit film) it's just a sort of "good will" payment, it's the principle of the thing that you need to keep in mind. Down the road, why would a director pay you if they know you're doing work for free?

To give you a ballpark figure from a recent example in my own experience: I'm currently signed on to score a short horror film (20-30 minutes), and it's a student film. They're totally not-for-profit, it's just a low-budget film for some festivals and a final assignment for their program, so I obviously wasn't going to charge them the industry standard rates. After telling them explicitly what the work SHOULD cost them, we found that the number that was mutually respectable to both our situations was $500USD. That covers about 15-20 minutes worth of music, and the reason I settled for lower was partly because of the fact that I like the script, and partly because of the fact that I get to record some live choir for it — a fun and exciting prospect.

Make of that number what you will; my main point was that you shouldn't encourage directors to exploit artists...we have a hard enough time getting good fair pay as it is. So while it's very noble to offer your work for free, I wouldn't do it unless you're desperate to fill up your portfolio with some stuff or otherwise personally attached to the project in some way.

That's my two cents, I'm sure others will chime in. Let us know what you end up working out though, I'm curious! :happy:

I really appreciate your thoughts on this matter. I completely understand the dilemma as far as composer compensation goes, and the last thing I want to do is create a hole for myself in the future.

This particular venture is a new one for me, we just started up the group, and it is mainly for experience, screen credit, and portfolio addition. We are talking undergrad here, by the way. I think once we get going and get some report with the professors I will change the business model up a little bit.

If you'd like to check out just how we are running this, feel free to look at our site: six-four.net.

Thanks again for the post.

Call it an internship and you don't have to pay them.

But I'm one of a small minority of small-time composers who aren't interested in money right now.

Composers are like farmers - we are price takers at both ends. Which means we get screwed twice sometimes.

A farmer has to purchase seed and equipment at the market price, and then he has to sell his crops at whatever the market rate is. He has little ability to influence either price. Which may mean that some years the infallible "free market" expects farmers to grow crops for free - or even at a loss.

Similarly composers don't have the market power to affect the hiring rates for musicians & recording studios (or VIs and DAWs). Nor can we affect film budgets - there are far more people wanting to work on films than there are films.

Which means that there are hundreds of directors out there who expect you to work for "No/Lo/Deferred" pay, aka:

1. Do this for free (which really means "Do this at a loss, and pay musicians etc. out of your own pocket").

2. Do this for a payment so low as to be nominal.

3. Do this in return for my promise to pay you down the road if the film makes money and you are vigilant enough to pursue your cut.

or the best one of all:

4. Do this for free and there may be more work down the road! Hurray, more work!

First there's Marius's point. Now that you've established that you're desperate enough to work at a LOSS, at what point do you think a director is going to start paying you?

Second, think about everyone else he's sending emails to. A director has to hire lots of people - actors, sound techs, cameramen, makeup, etc. If he's paying the COMPOSER on a no-lo-def basis whaddaya think he's paying the foley artists and makeup people? And how many working relationships do you think he's forging?

BTW if it's bad for composers it's flatout TERRIBLE for the post-production people. I know a guy who gets several emails every week saying, essentially "Please master and print-to-DVD my movie for 20$, I know you have the software I bet you can do it on your computer in a day! There's more work down the road." And if you don't believe me that there are directors looking for someone to post-produce their movie for the price of pizza, just check Craigslist...

I know it must be hard to be a director... and far be it from me to badmouth all the good directors out there... but still.... composing's hard work too.

You absolutely must get paid when you do work, and if the director is unwilling then point out in a friendly way that there IS a lot of free music on the Internet (under CC license) and a lot of it is good...

What was the saying, you have to spend money to make money? Directors oughta learn some basic economics, I'm tellin' ya.

Yes but the point is the director is not making any money. One of the stipulations I am putting forth is that the film cannot make any money or else we need to be payed at least the nominal fees.

Yes but the point is the director is not making any money. One of the stipulations I am putting forth is that the film cannot make any money or else we need to be payed at least the nominal fees.

Then why the heck would anyone make a film to begin with? Art?

Then why the heck would anyone make a film to begin with? Art?

Yes. Or for a charitable cause. Or to raise awareness on a subject they feel strongly about. Try not to think so materialistically, Tokke.

The point is that just because the director isn't making money on the film, doesn't mean he/she shouldn't pay for the talents they make use of to create it. Unless the talent in question has a personal interest in the subject of the film and agrees to do it charitably — in which case it's a different story — they should and they do get paid for their work....and so should you. :)

Here's my view on this subject. When you're first starting out, you don't have much choice other than to work for free, if someone offers you money, take it, but this will most likely be the exception. You've maybe got a few demos, but hardly any connections, and working for free is the easiest way to gain connections. Work like this for a while, but once you've done a few films, and have a solid demo reel, you need to start valuing your time and your effort. It isn't easy to score a film, and it takes time out of your day that you might otherwise be spending at a job/school/etc.

As Marius said, unless you have a personal vested interest in the film and are willing to work for free, you should get paid for your work. Think of it like this: The director is most likely spending money on props, cameras, catering, permits, crew, etc. If they're not willing to spend on one of the MOST important parts of their film, something that could make or break their film, you have no business working with them.

As far as actual pricing goes, you can charge by minute of score, or a flat fee for the whole thing. If they offer you back end money in exchange for working for free now, you can take it if you like, but keep in mind that back end money comes from actual sales, (and not many students will be selling their films so you will essentially work for free). Average price for indie level (read, people composing for films that go to Sundance), composers is about $250/min. You'll probably end up charging much, much less, but this should give you an idea of what you can shoot for down the road. Just charge whatever you feel is fair, even just a little bit as a token of good faith on the director's part. The director has invested everywhere else, why not you?

I agree. My plan IS to get a little experience, hopefully make some connections, and after I have a reel to demo begin to charge for the service.