Scoping out the competition

As we get closer to launching our beta network/forum integration, Young Composers and its Record Hall network will have a few major competitors. The reason I think we can compete is because I feel we will be much more focused than any music network on the web. However, we are very small right now, so recognizing competition is important. The following major players are:

• music.myspace.com (not myspace.com)
  
• last.fm
  
• soundclick.com
  
• ilike.com (which was purchased by myspace I believe)

Please answer any of the following questions the best you can:

1. Do you visit any of the above websites on a regular basis?
   
2. What needs do they successfully address of yours?
   
3. What needs do the above sites not address of yours?
   
4. What are the above websites currently better at than we are?
   
5. What is Young Composers better at?
   
6. What would you like to see differently at Young Composers?
   
7. From 1-10, 10 being the most engaging, how engaging are the above websites?
   
8. From 1-10, 10 being the most engaging, how engaging is Young Composers?

I think there are a few important factors for running a successful network, and they are, making sure it isn't boring, addressing a wanted need, and the most important, staying focused. Thanks for your help!

As we get closer to launching our beta network/forum integration, Young Composers and its Record Hall network will have a few major competitors. The reason I think we can compete is because I feel we will be much more focused than any music network on the web. However, we are very small right now, so recognizing competition is important. The following major players are:

• music.myspace.com (not myspace.com)
  
• last.fm
  
• soundclick.com
  
• ilike.com (which was purchased by myspace I believe)

All crap. ilike is just a spam receptacle, last.fm still crashes my computer, myspace is myspace, whether it's for music or people, an soundclick doesn't have a strong reviewing feature.

Actually, you should check out iLike. It was introduced as a social networking part of GarageBand (interesting that myspace is buying it now, wonder what that'd do to ol' GB)

Please answer any of the following questions the best you can:

[*] Do you visit any of the above websites on a regular basis?

Used to have to use myspace for my band. Spamtastic, hard to find similar bands, and frankly a less than quick load time. iLike I have an account to as part of having an account to GarageBand. Learn from iLike, don't do it again. I never ran it, but I've accessed our band's old soundclick page. Nothing special, but nothing bad sticks in my mind.

Ferk's reviews are rather apt. I've only ever used the myspace music site, to showcase Blunt Object.

As for "What needs do the above sites not address of yours?"

None of those sites (or ANY musical networking sites to my knowledge) incorporate a way of showing the SCORE or printed music along with the audio. Everything else seems to be more of a showcase for the recordings and not of the actual compositional aspect. Where our DOES provide for score inclusion, I think it will put us ahead of the pack - at least in our specialized niche.

All these site are in a different niche from us. I think our competitors are sites more like

• Finale Showcase
  
• Sibeliusmusic
  
• 8notes.com
  

MySpace is not worth mentioning, I think.

Last.fm is for radio and finding real music by real composers, not discussion and uploading original compositions.

Soundclick is dominated by a bunch of people that play guitar and know zero-point-one-one music theory. Incidental and classical music just doesn't have a large presence there - it's where all the pop/rock people share their stuff.

I've never even heard of ilike.

I think this site is the best do to the involvement. I don't frequent any of the above, though I enjoy last fm do to the easy movement from song to song. I think that if this site has something like that (If you enjoyed this you'd also like) it'd be much better.

Anyways, I like YC better, as I said, because I get to be active and people recognize ME and MY music. Also, it's a better atmosphere, as we get to talk and DISCUSS things with others in an organized manner.

Ok, well I want to make a point. I don't know whether this is the right place for this or not. However, the thing about this site that is great and is much better than most other music related site on the web like music.myspace or soundclick or whatever is the focus on the actual composition aspect of music. The sites that you mentioned, chopin, and alot of the others are too focused on the "business" of music. They are basically advertising platforms. The format of the site shifts the attention away from the art of the music and the construction and the thought and it shifts it towards popularity and commonality. You lose the instruction and the learning. You lose the freshness and the uniqueness. I would hope that is not the direction we plan to take "Record Hall" in. I would hate the day I see a YC of the past turn into a Soundclick or music.myspace. I love the feedback you get on YC and the vast databank of knowledge. I mean, we have lots of very intelligent and very well learned musicians on this site who help less informed ones learn. They also help give critiques. I would be willing to bet that you could put the best of the best of our music and compositions on this site up against anything else out there. We have very wonderful people and you can asked questions and get them answered just like that. I would not like that to change. I would also not like the community environment to change either. I like the groups of people I know. I like the off-Topic forum where you can share parts of your life outside of music or just composition. I talk about food and my sisters dance and photography a lot because that is part of my life and I like sharing it with people that I like on this site. I don't want to lose that aspect of YC in a new site and new forum format.

So, sorry if that is too long or in the wrong spot, but I really thought I should address that.

Well, Chopin is not planning on changing YC at all... this forum will remain intact here and nothing will change.

Record Hall will become the social networking site. So, luckily, there won't be much of a change around HERE. Chopin really doesn't want to lose this place, so he's keeping a safety blanket. hehe.

Now, I guess I can address some of those questions.

I think YC needs to stay as much about what it is as possible. However, it can be better at a few things. There is an issue with the ability to get music out there. We have a thing here where basically if you are not known to be a great composer then your music and compositions do not get noticed. Some people get more recognition and attention like Christopher Dunn and Marius and they deserve it. However, there are new or relatively new members who post and they don't even get a response to their composition posts. They may be wonderful and they may have a great piece of music, but it takes too long for them to catch on in the forum too be recognized. And sometimes they don't. So, I would suggest a way of sort of leveling the playing field of getting the music out there and making the actual music on the site more in the front. However, this is a risky thing I think. First of all, you could do a thing like soundclick does where it rates it and makes it a focus. However, the risk there is that you may change the focus of posting and sharing music and critiquing from wonderful helpful criticism and learning to strictly business. It may become too much of a popularity thing and too commercialized if you know what I mean. The other issue is that a ranking system may polarize even more because people will check intot he top of the list and the bottom of the list would be rejected and neglected. So, there is a challenge here I think.

As far as the sites that you mentioned I really don't care about them. I have used soundclick to upload stuff in the past, but basically I don't need what those sites offer. I would agree with James when he says that our competition is more Sibelius and Finale. At least I would hope it would be. I would not like for the site to change tot he point where we are competing with soundclick because I think that would shift the site away from what I like about YC (which I already talked about).

I know that YC is supposed to stay as a forum sort of integrated into this new Record Hall thing. Now, I guess either two things could come of that. YC could change or it could stay the same and the other aspects of "Record Hall" other then the YC forum could be neglected in large part like most of the archives and the wikis and other stuff on YC are not as much apart of things as the forum is. So, I don't know. I like the forum. If that stays the same I am happy. I like the store and the lessons and all too, but the forum is where I am at most of the time.

Well... About your new musician theory... I would like to propose a counterargument. Sure when new members come to this site they don't get noticed... This is the real world. However, most people who don't get noticed are they who aren't very experienced. And because of that, over time (it took me three years) they learn HOW to write music by getting occasional crtitiques and self learning (that's what I did)... Now, I am currently 17, so I don't have much experience, so I have had to work that much harder. I have been putting effort into this site: marketing myself, making small talk and being friends with highly respected members, advertising my threads, posing questions in the advice forum, and submitting buttloads of music. What did that do? It made me successful here. I worked for my status. So did Chris, but he had years and years of composition school... So did Michel (Qccowboy). Nico was kind of like me, except he had a much larger presence at a younger age. It's all part of the game. You do your work and that's what you get out of it.

Now sure, a kid who has never had training NEEDS more attention to than Nico. Lol. But Nico worked for his status, so the kid does

too. This kid needs to learn how to ask smart questions, how to post a whole bunch of music to be ripped apart.. And over time, they will develop. That's how you play the YC networking game to win.

There really is no chance our network will be ignored for the reasons that Record Hall will be deeply integrated with the forum. The only way to upload music will be through Record Hall, and the only way to log in, or sign up, will be through Record Hall as well.

I am hoping the visibility problem will be solved with the new system. Here is a preview of how our visibility program will work:

1. Your friends will be notified of your uploads.
   
2. Your piece will be displayed on the Record Hall homepage.
   
3. You will have visibility in the upload forums on Young Composers.
   
4. The more people who add your music to their favorites, the more "fans" you acquire. You acquire fans by receiving at least "x" favorites from the same person. Your fans will start seeing your new uploads through broadcasting messages. Furthermore, you can IM and interact with fans, just as you can with friends. You cannot control your fanlist, but you can control your friendlist.
   
5. When someone adds your music to their favorites, they build a public playlist on their profile. This increases your visibility.
   
6. The search engine should play a major role in finding music. There are various factors that will help you rank for your keywords.
   
7. Our directory will also help users find your music.

This is the reason why linking to music will not be allowed any longer. The only way we can all take advantage of these visibility tools, is if we all take advantage of this network. Because this network is strictly focused on music visibility and music reviews, and not the business of music, I see Record Hall as a huge improvement to the forum.

This sounds great. I am very excited about this. I think we are finally going to get a problem solved that has been a problem for a long time. The site sounds awesome because I think there are going to be significant controls put in place to limit anyone from bypassing Record Hall and going straight toward YC and the forum. And that system for the music sounds like it will work great to me. It sounds like much more stuff is going to be put to use.

There really is no chance our network will be ignored for the reasons that Record Hall will be deeply integrated with the forum. The only way to upload music will be through Record Hall, and the only way to log in, or sign up, will be through Record Hall as well.

I am hoping the visibility problem will be solved with the new system. Here is a preview of how our visibility program will work:

1. Your friends will be notified of your uploads.
   
2. Your piece will be displayed on the Record Hall homepage.
   
3. You will have visibility in the upload forums on Young Composers.
   
4. The more people who add your music to their favorites, the more "fans" you acquire. You acquire fans by receiving at least "x" favorites from the same person. Your fans will start seeing your new uploads through broadcasting messages. Furthermore, you can IM and interact with fans, just as you can with friends. You cannot control your fanlist, but you can control your friendlist.
   
5. When someone adds your music to their favorites, they build a public playlist on their profile. This increases your visibility.
   
6. The search engine should play a major role in finding music. There are various factors that will help you rank for your keywords.
   
7. Our directory will also help users find your music.

This is the reason why linking to music will not be allowed any longer. The only way we can all take advantage of these visibility tools, is if we all take advantage of this network. Because this network is strictly focused on music visibility and music reviews, and not the business of music, I see Record Hall as a huge improvement to the forum.

Wow, it seems like it. Sounds like this could be very exciting for all of us.

• music.myspace.com (not myspace.com)
  
• last.fm
  
• soundclick.com
  
• ilike.com (which was purchased by myspace I believe)

I use Last.fm to scrobble, and have a soundclick account. I agree with James that the number of classical use is very few.

I would use a site like this to upload music and ask reviews. Like the way it is here. I dont know if there will be a space to upload MP3's and PDF's. To this end I made a myDisk.se account (similar with box.net, but you can access singe files as web-adres, simmilar to Box-premium, but FREE). Together with a PHP script I wrote it makes a list with all my music.

(see J.R. Cramer)

Here's a site to look at: The Classical Music Hub | Dilettante

It would be awesome if our site looked as awesome and professional as that Classical Music Hub website.

You know, a flash homepage wouldn't be a bad idea. Not a ripoff of Dillitante's page, but something flash would be very cool. Sort of a welcome/about page. This would draw new users in and we could post the useful info (such as our list of latest uploads, highest ranked pieces/composers etc.) below it.

I say Marius should design it and make it. He is great with FLASH. Check out his mathazzar website. Or we could higher a professional company to do it I guess.

I say Marius should design it and make it. He is great with FLASH. Check out his mathazzar website. Or we could higher a professional company to do it I guess.

As far as I know (Marius, correct me if I'm wrong): Marius hired pros to do both the design and coding of his website. :whistling:

Flash is bad. We already are high-bandwidth for the music.

Flash sites are sooo 2001 anyway.

Funny, Marius is the name of my developer, and yes, he is Romanian ;)

We have a few flash parts on the site, the mp3 player, and video player. That's about it I think. We make use of ajax tabs on the homepage to present newly uploaded music/videos, top music by views, percentage, discussions, favorites, rather than flash.

Flash is bad. We already are high-bandwidth for the music.

This site consumes 1.5 gigs/day of bandwidth for just midi. With the addition of mp3s and videos, the thing that gets me nervous the most is unaffordable bandwidth increase, and no paying members. This is why I have to carefully figure out the right package for a free account.

As far as I know (Marius, correct me if I'm wrong): Marius hired pros to do both the design and coding of his website. :whistling:

Oh, I thought he did it. I guess not. I know he can do it because I have seen a video that he made himself. I asked him if he had made it because it was very good.

This site consumes 1.5 gigs/day of bandwidth for just midi. With the addition of mp3s and videos, the thing that gets me nervous the most is unaffordable bandwidth increase, and no paying members. This is why I have to carefully figure out the right package for a free account.

I understand. I know you want to keep this site membership free and I would like that as well. I also understand the problem of being able to do what you want to do and what everyone else wants you to do and still be able to afford it and not make a membership fee necessary. You do have the store which I hope brings in some funds. How is that doing these days? What are the sales like? I have not bought anything as of yet, but I have not looked at it much lately either. Maybe I will go do that. Anyways, you could always have a donation button just in case there was someone feeling sympathetic with you issues and wanted to contribute. I would probably actually do that if money ever got to be an issue with this site. I know of a few places that do this. They just accept your donation through your credit card. Then there is the issue of identity theft and all, but if chopin handled the donation aspect himself then I would feel that things would be safe. There some I trust that far and some that I don't. I don't think I would be happy about having to pay a monthly fee, but a donation here and there when I wanted to would not be difficult.

This site consumes 1.5 gigs/day of bandwidth for just midi. With the addition of mp3s and videos, the thing that gets me nervous the most is unaffordable bandwidth increase, and no paying members. This is why I have to carefully figure out the right package for a free account.

and hey, your flash mp3 player is the same player I used on my original ugly green site. =DD

The store is a lot of work to keep up to date, and I think it will be too much trouble than it's worth to be honest. While I don't think I will completely dissolve the store yet, I may put it on hold eventually. Also, where my interest lies is in engineering the site's functionality and growing the value of the network.

Everyone will have a free default membership. However we will have to limit upload space possibly to 50 or 100 megs per user. This is about 5-10 mp3's? And loads of midis.

There should be a function on the site where users can sell mp3's to other users. This is why uploading mp3's would be desirable. Also, mp3's sound nicer. Since removal of pieces will hurt your member ranking number, you lose value in the search engine, (for example, you will eliminate your fans, your built up favorite lists, your uploaded media score will also be eliminated, and thus your search engine authority will decrease), the average member will want more space rather than clearing out the old pieces. So in theory (and I have to double check a lot of this with my developer), if you remove pieces, you decrease your member rank. Even if you decrease it by half a percent, this may seem small, but you are measured over the whole entire network. A half percent, could mean you fall below 100's or even 1000's of members.

The network is very simple on the outside, but much of the functionality works behind the scenes.

and hey, your flash mp3 player is the same player I used on my original ugly green site. =DD

Open source parts: the key to saving costs :D

You could possibly find somebody to put in charge of operating the store and keep it up to date... ? Just brainstorming.