Jazz Combo Composition (getting a Darker sound)

My first post, Greetings!

I've written some blues, and some modal stuff, But it's my senior year in highschool so i really wanted to blow the judges (state music festival & Eau Claire Jazz Festival) away. My issue arrises in the fact that i think i have a O.K chord progreesion but no matter what kind of melodie i wright over it it leans away from charles mingus toward george gershiwn (i want it in C minor and to sound Scary and Angry as opposed to sad here is the chord progression (AABA)

A:

|Dmi7(b5)|G7(b9)|C-(maj 7)|C-(maj 7)

|C-7(b5)| F7(b9)|Db-7)|Gb7|

B:

|Db-7(b5)|Gb7|Amaj + 5|Amaj +5|

|D-7|C-7|B-7|Ab-7|

|G-7 |F-7|Eb-7|E7(#9)|

Then the A section for the last run through starts on a D9 instead of half diminished to release tension from the E7(#9)

thanks in advance,

Jay

As you're first learning jazz theory I would recommend sticking to more traditional chord progressions. For example I'm not sure that the Gb7 chord connects so well to Dm7b5. Of course it can be done since it's a dominant substitution a minor third away from the A7b9 that would normally be used, but I think an alternate minor third substitution, C7b9, would be more convincing, or maybe C#dim7. I also don't find the the E7#9 chord leading back to D7 particularly convincing. Another thing... that descent from the D7 to Eb7 in the bridge seems repetitive (it's better if something like that happens very fast). Amaj#5 chords may be better labeled as A+ or Aaug, but as such they have a different function (dominant) from the Amaj7(#4 or #11) chord (tonic), so be careful to notate what you mean. For that "darker" sound, fully diminished harmonies (with extensions a whole step above any note of the chord) may help, along with alt. chords (dominant seventh chords with b9 and/or #9 plus b5 and/or #5) and your m(maj7) chords (assuming that darker is equated with more dissonance).

I hope my comments don't frustrate you, they're only meant to get you thinking. Keep at it!

thank you very much i understand and appreciate your comments

my only additional question is about using fully diminished harmonies

can the melody be fully diminished for the same effect or is that a bad idea?

P.s

(i think i know what you mean i remember hearing james carter play oleo and going up a hole(or half?) step above the melody while another sax stayed on the paper is that the same effect?

thank you very much i understand and appreciate your comments

my only additional question is about using fully diminished harmonies

can the melody be fully diminished for the same effect or is that a bad idea?

P.s

(i think i know what you mean i remember hearing james carter play oleo and going up a hole(or half?) step above the melody while another sax stayed on the paper is that the same effect?

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Do you mean having a diminished melody over non-diminished harmony? I suppose you could do that if you work it out carefully... What I meant above is that if you have a fully diminished (optional seventh) chord as harmony, you can add one or more notes that are a whole step above any note of the chord to your melody (or voicing of the chord). This can add some color and it will not sound awkward. You might also try playing a melodic phrase over a dominant chord that is based on the chord's tritone substitution, or vice versa (this is something Charlie Parker does quite often). Let me know if you need clarification.

i do =)

need clarification

OK, but I hope I don't confuse you! Do you understand the part about extensions of diminished harmony? The added notes simply add color to diminished chords or to your melody. For example, if you have a Ddim7 as harmony (D-F-Ab-B), you can throw E, G, Bb, and/or Db into the chord as well (or into your melody) and these new notes will sound "right," in a traditional context.

Do you know about tritone substitutions? Jazz tends to be made up of II-V-I progressions (like Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7). You can "substitute" the V chord (G7 in the example) for the dominant chord a tritone (6 half steps) away. So Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 can become Dm7 - Db7 - Cmaj7. This gives you a nice descending bass line. If you get more adventurous you could perform a tritone sub. on the Dm7 chord as well, giving you the progression Abm7 - Db7 - Cmaj7, or even Ab7 - Db7 - Cmaj7 (the quality of minor chords is often fluid; that is, a minor chord can be changed to a dominant chord with the same root if you choose, but I think you know that given your change of Dm7b5 to D7 for the return to the A section in your piece).

As for the thing I mentioned about Charlie Parker, he will often play a tritone sub. over regular dominant 7 chords. So instead of emphasizing G-B-D-F when playing over a G7 chord, he might emphasize Db-F-Ab-Cb; notice that Db is b5 of the G7 chord and Ab is b9, while F and Cb (B) are already part of the chord. Or, if he's playing over a chord that is already a tritone substitution (like Db7 in Dm7 - Db7 - Cmaj7), then he might play notes from the regular dominant 7 chord (G7).

Sorry if you already understood this...

Thank you very much

(AABA)

A:

|Dmi7(b5)|G7(b9)|C-(maj 7)|C-(maj 7)

|C-7(b5)| F7(b9)|Db-7)|Gb7|

B:

|Db-7(b5)|Gb7|Amaj + 5|Amaj +5|

|D-7|C-7|B-7|Ab-7|

|G-7 |F-7|Eb-7|E7(#9)|

so i've changed it from this to this

(AABA)

A:

|Dmi7(b5)|G7(b9)|C-(maj 7)|C-(maj 7)

|C-7(b5)| F7(b9)|Db-7)|C7b9|

B:

|A-7|C-7|Eb-7|Gb-7|

A-7|D-7|Gb-7|C-7|

Any Feedback?

Try turning some of your minor chords into minor 9ths (e.g., A-9/C-9 in the B section).

I do like the b9ths on your major chords, but try sticking in a few 13ths, too, to get that implied 6/b7 dissonance.

...I do like the b9ths on your major chords...

Those aren't major chords.... They're dominant.

:whistling:

Those aren't major chords.... They're dominant.

:whistling:

Sorry. I should have said major triads.

Sorry. I should have said major triads.

:pinch: But they're not major triads...they're dominant 7th chords.

(They contain a major triad, but are very different things)

;)

Sorry for being picky.... standardizing chord nomenclature is a bit of a "thing" with me.

True. The point I was trying to make is that the composer might want to add a 13th to them.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Jay, careful with what you're notating. You're using both "mi" and "-" to represent minor. Choose one or the other...

However, I recommend using a simple "m" instead of "mi" or "-" to represent minor. Something like your Db-7(b5) should really be written as either Dbm7b5 or Dbm7(b5) for clarity. I originally thought that a lot of the bridge chords were dominant when they're really minor seventh chords, so sorry about that.

Jay, careful with what you're notating. You're using both "mi" and "-" to represent minor. Choose one or the other...

Good advice! I'd even take it a step further:

However, I recommend using a simple "m" instead of "mi" or "-" to represent minor.

I advocate : "min" and "Maj" ... spell it out. Realize how easily an "m" and "M" can be mistaken ;)

Good advice! I'd even take it a step further:

I advocate : "min" and "Maj" ... spell it out. Realize how easily an "m" and "M" can be mistaken ;)

Yeah that's true. But if you use "m" and "maj" there also shouldn't be any confusion (unless your piece doesn't have any of one of the two types of chords)!