Posting new music without scores

It seems to become a growing custom that posts his music only by adding a MP 3, midi or whatever soundfile he or she is able to obtain. The score, however, - and forgive me my boldness I not only thought that this is one of the reasons why we visit this forum, that is not only to hear but also to read and discuss the scores, hence the composition technique, orchestration used, etc... - that very same instrument, the score thus, seems to become increasingly more and more absent. One can argue that this may be due to the new forum, yet this tendancy of not posting scores already started when the old version was still being used.

I was convinced that in the previous version, it was mentioned on the home page that it was considered obligatory for one posting music to post a score, give a short description of his work and the means needed to perfom it, the circumstances it was written, and so on.... Hence, when I emphasize that there is no score, I do not seem to overreact as there are many more elements which are absent in the presentation of a new work. Yet, it is starting to grow on my NERVES that neaerly each and every time there is NO SCORE! Or, are we to assume that these people are only interested in comments such as "I liked your music" or "I do not like your music", which is about the only decent thing to say when one has not anything else to say.

I really would like to make an appeal to everybody posting music here: it would be so much nicer if there were notes accompaning the sound. We all can learn from looking and discussing the works of others; especially the newcommers here could benefit much from reading scores and reading the comments aboutt the mistakes and the qualities of scores posted; how else are they going to improve their skills; just by reading a comment: "I really liked your music?" Nice compliment, ok, but what is the rentability of such words? Not much, I guess...

FDC

Look at it this way...

You have an opportunity to improve your listening skills by listening for certain instrument combinations, interesting motifs, and other things you'll otherwise find in a score that isn't published. So, while it is quite annoying, I have to wonder why the only thing you think you can say is whether or not you liked the music. There's always more to say than that, score or no score.

Look at it this way...

You have an opportunity to improve your listening skills by listening for certain instrument combinations, interesting motifs, and other things you'll otherwise find in a score that isn't published. So, while it is quite annoying, I have to wonder why the only thing you think you can say is whether or not you liked the music. There's always more to say than that, score or no score.

Your comment would be valid if the music files added would be of perfect quality which is often not the case due to several reasons. Standing in front of an orchestra, twice a week, as an amateur conductor, I think my listening skills are developped to a sufficient degree.

You are right that one can say more than "it is good or bad" even by listening to it, just wanted to put something in a black/white view here... yet, I remain at my opinion

Your comment would be valid if the music files added would be of perfect quality which is often not the case due to several reasons. Standing in front of an orchestra, twice a week, as an amateur conductor, I think my listening skills are developed to a sufficient degree.

You are right that one can say more than "it is good or bad" even by listening to it, just wanted to put something in a black/white view here... yet, I remain at my opinion

If you can't hear what instruments are sounding at given points in a piece now, eventually you will be able to intuitively. I'm not an amateur conductor or anything of the sort and can hear everything I need to hear to make comments about pieces here. I actually approach it as a challenge when there's no score to come up with comments without having any visual 'verification' -so to speak- of what I'm hearing. Even midi leaves -some- semblance of a timbre for me to hear the instrumentation. And heck, if it's a tonal work, maybe you can discern whether you hear tonic/dominant relationships, 'safe' or 'adventurous' harmonies, and so forth...

As for black and white, you should know better than to try to make any issue in music so concrete... everything we learn in music is relative to subjectivity, even the need for scores or notation at all.

If you can't hear what instruments are sounding at given points in a piece now, eventually you will be able to intuitively. I'm not an amateur conductor or anything of the sort and can hear everything I need to hear to make comments about pieces here. I actually approach it as a challenge when there's no score to come up with comments without having any visual 'verification' -so to speak- of what I'm hearing. Even midi leaves -some- semblance of a timbre for me to hear the instrumentation. And heck, if it's a tonal work, maybe you can discern whether you hear tonic/dominant relationships, 'safe' or 'adventurous' harmonies, and so forth...

As for black and white, you should know better than to try to make any issue in music so concrete... everything we learn in music is relative to subjectivity, even the need for scores or notation at all.

Well, matters of opinion can vary... you yours, I mine. I hear enough thank you very much, yet ... why put out a rule, if nobody follows it... Anyway, as said, matters of opinion can vay. As to the black and white: agreed, music is all about emotions and feelings and so on; yet this topic had nothing to do with emotions and feelings, it is a pure rational thing: there either is or is not a score, it is a simple as adding 1 and 1 together and I guess we both would end up with two, no?

I agree with Beethoven Guy, whenever it is possible, a score should be provided. By posting a score it can indefinitely improve the amount of feedback you receive and much more valuable at that. Some forms of music were not created with sheet music, thus they do not post any. Though it is usually the posters loss, unless it is of outstanding quality, that they do not post a score. They will likely get less reviews and of lesser quality do to that limitation. You can always ask for the score too, most likely first time posters do not realize this.

Warning: I'm about to Rant...

[Rant]The most annoying things to me are the people who take such an adversarial position on some of the smallest issues in a score when they review. Okay, so the composer hasn't completed ALL the finer details of adding slurs, dynamics, or a tempo. Is this the material a person who has left these things out is really in need of? Honestly, if slurs and dynamics are missing, I often think the composer is in need of a much different review and discussion of content and overall sound/mood of the piece.

Sometimes simply listening to the rendition of the piece and explaining how the form of the piece could be better... or how some of the harmonic progressions are too bland and need more variety in sonority... are issues that will often propel the composer to move past such uncertainties and dedicate more thought to things like slurs and dynamics. And for crying out loud, criticism is NOT constructive by default, so if you're looking at a score and completely ignoring what you're hearing, all you're being is nit-picky. If you're going to offer criticism of a piece, at least put yourself in the cockpit using the ideas that are there and make suggestions as though you were writing the piece and putting your name on it. Too many times I read comments like they're quoted directly out of a theory or orchestration book like they are laws the composer has broken. [/rant]

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Now, with that rant out of the way... I'll address Beethoven Guy's response. The guidelines don't state (at least the last time I read them), that posting scores is required, only encouraged for more feedback. So, there are really no "rules" being broken here at all. If you have the aural skills, then it really shouldn't make THAT much of a difference anyway. Just comment based on what you hear instead of what you see. Maybe you'll actually have more to say if you start doing this... I know I did.

I will post a large orchestral work soon, and I won't post the score and let me tell you why....

This site is open to millions of probable visitors around the world, and there is all kind of people in this planet.

As soon as you create a piece, you own the copyright, but that's some kind of "theorical" statement, the true is you own nothing unless you have the "Certificate of Registration" sent by the U.S Copyright (other countrie's documents are not enough to me). To get that you have to fill and send a form (PA form usually) to the copyright office and pay, then wait you work is processed and your certificate sent to you.

Now, hipothetically .... if you post a score here and some hotshot likes your piece, and he sends (before you) the PA form to the Copyright office, (with HIS name) and gets his Certificate, that person actually stold your work, now he's the owner and he has it written in paper. (The Copyright office has no way to know that piece was not written by him, because is the first time arrives to them)

who could be interested on some of the pieces here ? .... none of the members I believe BUT, are you going to trust in the whole internet people ?

Get your Certificate is easy and cheap inside U.S and other countries, but in some other is not easy, .... I live in a country with the world worst postal service, and the Certificate is 95% chances of get lost after the office sent it, and ... how do you pay a few dollars with no credit card ..... (I send 4 PA forms a few years ago, after a year, I recieved 3 certificates 3 of 4)

It suppose to be an online easier way to do it, but I don't know if it's ready yet.

I do not complain, I have 2 orchestral works posted here WITH full score and able to download audio and pdf files, .... but IF I don't post the score in other works more important and dear to me, that's why.

(I love that song, old but still rocks!!! )

^^Another Good Reason^^

In the U.S., send your score to your home address using certified mail and never open it. Simply file it away and your certified mail is just as time-stamped as a copyright certificate. This is what I do.

Im going to agree with the Original Post.

It is getting quite annoying when people post only mp3 (on shady sites) with no explanation of the piece, and no score. No I understand that there are no rules about posting scores or even posting information about the piece, however, I was under the impression that we are here to help each better our selves as composers. When someone post only the mp3 (and sometimes a very crude midi mock-up, all I can do is post my opinion of the piece based on my personal taste and aesthetics; and how does that help anyone?

I also assume that most of us are working towards being concert composers, unless the post primarily in the soundtrack forum or electronic forum, so the ability to notate music would be something worth commenting on. I would much rather comment on things like range of instruments, playability, text-setting, note spelling for easier playing, and overall readability then whether or not I like the piece. My personal taste should be merely an after thought as opposed the heart of my critic. What I think about your musical taste does nothing to help any of the composers on this forum get a performance, get a premier, get published, get commissioned, or even get a simple read through with live performers. However, by helping each other with notation, we can all help each other get closer to a performance.

And one other note on the copyright thing:

I seriously doubt that there are that many people stealing sheet music on this site or any where online. no one here is well known enough to have anyone really think to them to steal music from, nor will there be anything to gain by stealing sheet music. So Im pretty sure its safe to a point to post sheet music on this site.

Is there anyway for the forum to send a e-certificate to anyone who wants one if they are afraid of someone stealing their tunes/score/ideas? This may be a strong form of copyright after all you will have "published" it then and have a date stamp.

As soon as you create a piece, you own the copyright, but that's some kind of "theorical" statement, the true is you own nothing unless you have the "Certificate of Registration" sent by the U.S Copyright (other countrie's documents are not enough to me). To get that you have to fill and send a form (PA form usually) to the copyright office and pay, then wait you work is processed and your certificate sent to you.

In the U.S., send your score to your home address using certified mail and never open it. Simply file it away and your certified mail is just as time-stamped as a copyright certificate. This is what I do.

Wrong and wrong. You post a score here, it's timestamped. Add that to the fact that a poor man's copyright is increasingly less persuasive in court because of the ease of fraud (steam the envelope, for those without their Cookbooks handy...). Worst comes to worst, you show up in court with papers showing your IP and email Chopin or the other Admins to show that your account is connected to that IP. Wham bam; ball in theif's court.

Is there anyway for the forum to send a e-certificate to anyone who wants one if they are afraid of someone stealing their tunes/score/ideas? This may be a strong form of copyright after all you will have "published" it then and have a date stamp.

But seriously, I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned with what I'm doing now that what I did.

EDIT: Guess I'll go on-topic. Scores are useful. I wouldn't want a score for a rock track, that's all I'm saying.

And I liked the minutia mining; at least you read someone who thinks he knows more than you.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, scores are useful, ... I'm not against the posting of the scores but what I said about stealing the rights is possible, I admit the risk is very low but it can be done, don't count it as something impossible.

I live in one of the most corrupt countries in the world where everybody steal each time they can, (in food p/Kg, gasoline, changes etc.) and believe when I tell you it can be done, and much easier with the lyrics.

Anyway I don't want to keep inspiring lack of trust in this site, I only said that IF in some moment I post a work without the score, that's why.

It would be nice if more people posted scores..after all, it is the score to the piece...it's where you can see slurs and arco and pizz and ties and divisi and such (lol at me posting this...I'm terrible at putting these things in)

However, if the composer wants to post the piece, but hasn't fixed up the score, then yes, they should be given time to tidy it up.

^^Another Good Reason^^

In the U.S., send your score to your home address using certified mail and never open it. Simply file it away and your certified mail is just as time-stamped as a copyright certificate. This is what I do.

This actually doesn't guarantee you anything at all:

I’ve heard about a “poor man’s copyright.” What is it?

The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration.

Further copyright information: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html

As a reviewer, I have to view dozens of submissions to this site daily. I review two forums (chamber and orchestral) - this is a lot of work. It irks me, however, when I go to select a work that doesn't contain the score on a number of levels: 1st) Instrumentation. Just because it sounds good - doesn't mean its playable on said instrument. Instruments have ranges and they have techniques and disadvantages that are important to follow. Without a score, we reviewers can not comment on these important things. 2nd) Structural Integrity - Just because a piece sounds good - doesn't mean that the overall structure of the work is good. Certainly, I can get inferences on whether or not the piece is structured - but a score provides far more in the means of overall construction. That said, I fully agree with the legal reasons mentioned by Sys. AntiA gives a really good way to prevent against theft. Also, your computer has a means at which you can validate legally that you created the work!

you know, I have an Idea, .... could it be possible to upload the score but have an option like in others data fields "Private, Signed in members, Public" etc .... so I can set only my "friend" see the score, but not everybody, .... then I'd start to add all those members I trust and I respect, they would be able to comment and make happy to all of us. Right now I recall at least 15 well known membes of YC, all of them are good composers with their own stuff and don't need to steal anything.

I'm going to investigate the copyright online registration process, I knew it was on beta testing but I'll see if it's funtional already.

A lot of people seem to make a fuss about this "poor-man's copyright" that I mentioned. Let's just be clear about one thing. There are no guarantees even if you try to protect your work with a valid copyright. Look at the Baxter v Williams case I've brought up time and again. If you actually listen to the music of both composers, there is virtually NO DIFFERENCE between the melody and harmony of the two examples. The argument Williams made was that the Baxter piece was a different piece because it was written for a different purpose, with different instrumentation, and in a different key.

Now, I love Williams as much as the next guy on here. I think he just screwed up, plain and simple. If I were listening to the work knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have any problem with awarding Baxter some damages based on the almost identical nature of the two works. But it just goes to show that in a court of law, a jury of my "peers" knows very little if anything about music. If the other guy can manage to wow them with some elaborate explanation of his compositional process and explain how different he approaches his work than I do, then that seems to be all a jury would need to know to NOT award me.

I'm not sold on copyright protection because it frankly doesn't matter. There are so many other factors that come into play with intellectual property as it is, and the only point of having copyright in the first place is to show that your work was in existence BEFORE the other guy's work. That's it. If there's a way to do that which doesn't involve spending money and time applying for copyright, then I take it.

Now, am I advising everyone to just not get a copyright for their work? Of course not. If you have the funds, you would be wise to do so. Do I seek copyright protection for my work at this time in my career? No. It makes no sense to do so as I'm not actually earning money for my work. When I am, you bet I'll put all my works under copyright if I am at risk of losing the money I've earned for my work.

But let me reiterate that there are absolutely no guarantees of protection even though U.S. Law calls it "Copyright Protection." It's really up to each and every person here to seek that protection when they feel their work warrants it. Up to now, where I am in my career, my work doesn't warrant that kind of investment at this point.

My band director doesn't want me posting scores on here for the copyright reasons. I usually only post scores of pieces that have been publicly performed or incomplete pieces.

One of the important issues is been touched upon here, quite frequently even, in the last postings. A lot of people seems indeed a little witholding posting scores here due of the copyright issues. Apart from the point taken from the Baxter-Williams case, there are numerous other examples which can be quoted here. Problem with copyright is indeed that there is no solid proof, watertight system. Moreover, those who relinquish posting scores here, because they are afraid it might be stolen, those who believe posting a score here would make it copyright protected, ... in numerous countries in the world, posting a score on a sites like these including Finale Showcase, Sibeliusmusic. com, does not make it copyright protected; it even does not proove that you are the original composer of the score; it actually does not proove anything. Furthermoren if A would be living in Greece, e.g., and would take a copy of a work posted here by a Brazilian composer, have it performed as its own, ... what are the changes that that exact person would ever find out? ... None of those present here is that well known to have a premiere published on page 1 of the world international press. And even if one would steal the work of a world composer - if I would take music from e.g. Theodorakis and rework it as my own - what are the changes of Theodorakis ever finding out? Few... Copyright, is a very delicate, very elusive issue. For sure, if one continues to do so, he will for sure be caught at a given moment although this may take a long time, although this does not mean he will be condemmed: magistrates know indeed very little of music as has often been proved in the past.

Computer appliances have their limitations and personally, I do not think it is the job of any of the reviewers here, to send an email confirming your copyright. Yet, I do hold on to my idea that it would be more than useful to have a score posted together with a midi file, as indeed, music written is different from music heard, even for those who claim that it trains the ear. It is much more difficult to judge a composition on its quality by only listening to the sound of it; especially as the files posted here are made by the computer where instruments have the capability of playing everything, even the umplayable: out of range, technically unplayable, and so on.

People in support of having their scores only visible for their friends... sorry I think this does not work. You limit your views to those of whom you already know they will give you a good review, even if it sucks.

Admit that those who post music here are minor composers: they do not belong to the world leading class; I do not find a Rutter, a Zimmer, a Brewaeys, a Groslot, a Theodorakis and so on on this site; even when their music sounds swell and even looks good. So, let us all make our lives easier and have a score published together with its music.

One thought to end: what is original, what is borrowed? Schumann based his piano concerto on Grieg, who took Beethoven as a source. For sure Schumann has known followers and all concertos start off in more or less the same way. Is Schumann's concerto not original? Did not day say the same of Brahms' first symphony? ...

Why you don't like the idea of limit the score link to your friends, at least that would give the choice to the member if posting public or not and YC would be aside this matter, and the members I was thinking in adding, they would give me true review, this is not facebook or Hi5.

I would like the opinion of more members about this idea, I could tell chopin about this possible change but first I want to know what do you think, remember it would be a choice "Signed in Members" that means all of you, not just the closer ones, (but at least not the entire open internet)

Warning: I'm about to Rant...

[Rant]The most annoying things to me are the people who take such an adversarial position on some of the smallest issues in a score when they review. Okay, so the composer hasn't completed ALL the finer details of adding slurs, dynamics, or a tempo. Is this the material a person who has left these things out is really in need of? Honestly, if slurs and dynamics are missing, I often think the composer is in need of a much different review and discussion of content and overall sound/mood of the piece.=

I agree with this, because on MULTIPLE occasions I was lazy and left out slurs and tempo markings (I usually mark dynamics) but then all I would get in reviews was "well I liked the piece but this is for flutes theres no way they can tongue all those 16th notes in measure X and they would probably run out of breath"

even thought i CLEARLY stated that the software was new to me, and I didn't really figure out slurs like I needed to in order to make the score look prettier. Sure, I could have waited an extra few days to post it on the forums, but the piece remains the same. Vivaldi.. I think it was vivaldi... hardly ever wrote slurs because it was up to the performers inturpretation. I have one of his bassoon concertos, the one in A minor that has a TON of 32nd notes that don't have any slurs! do I tongue them? no! of course not! I slur them! its was MY interpretation, somebody else my slur two tongue two.... I really wouldn't care if it was my piece how it was being played hundreds of years later. I mean, it if was the début I might say "hey can you slur three and tongue one?" but after that why would I care?

Admit that those who post music here are minor composers: they do not belong to the world leading class; I do not find a Rutter, a Zimmer,

lol~

lol~

Why lol? people present here, are minor musical geniuses... the good ones, are like donuts: they will surface in the end.

Why lol? people present here, are minor musical geniuses... the good ones, are like donuts: they will surface in the end.

lol.

Good troll.

Also, ughhh Rutter.