Posting new music without scores

I agree with this, because on MULTIPLE occasions I was lazy and left out slurs and tempo markings (I usually mark dynamics) but then all I would get in reviews was "well I liked the piece but this is for flutes theres no way they can tongue all those 16th notes in measure X and they would probably run out of breath"

even thought i CLEARLY stated that the software was new to me, and I didn't really figure out slurs like I needed to in order to make the score look prettier. Sure, I could have waited an extra few days to post it on the forums, but the piece remains the same. Vivaldi.. I think it was vivaldi... hardly ever wrote slurs because it was up to the performers inturpretation. I have one of his bassoon concertos, the one in A minor that has a TON of 32nd notes that don't have any slurs! do I tongue them? no! of course not! I slur them! its was MY interpretation, somebody else my slur two tongue two.... I really wouldn't care if it was my piece how it was being played hundreds of years later. I mean, it if was the début I might say "hey can you slur three and tongue one?" but after that why would I care?

I mean I feel you -- I'm lazy as hell with my notation. But laziness isn't an excuse.

Plus, you should care, because each thing sounds different. If you're into performer control, things like that, that's fine, but it should be noted, especially in a strictly western music context post-romanticism. It's just how it is. Things sound different, and that's mad meaningful.

I mean I feel you -- I'm lazy as hell with my notation. But laziness isn't an excuse.

Plus, you should care, because each thing sounds different. If you're into performer control, things like that, that's fine, but it should be noted, especially in a strictly western music context post-romanticism. It's just how it is. Things sound different, and that's mad meaningful.

And also Vivaldi and other baroque composers didn't write their stuff because it was a "common knowledge" thing back then, like many many things in the baroque period (dynamic, phrasing, etc.) So basically now since "common knowledge" doesn't exactly exist anymore, the more exact you write things the better.

trying to get a consensus reading this thread.

- people are encouraged to post their scores

- there are no Rutters here

- Baroque composers are lame articulators :D

so, nothing new, except that Beethoven really really wants to encourage people to post. And I agree.

If someone wants more suggestions for the recording of their work, then I believe the census is the score isn't really necessary. Most performance issues in DAW's have nothing to do with a score. If someone wants more suggestions on the content of their work, I STILL think the score isn't very necessary for even a moderately trained ear. The eyes deceive, and I'm quite convinced that what happens on paper doesn't necessarily happen in sound. The only time I really feel a score is necessary is when we're talking about specific ways of indicating things to performers. So, posting a score is quite necessary for that reason. What kind of feedback do you need? If you post a score, you'll get feedback about your score. If not, you should indicate anything specific that you want comments/feedback on about your piece.

Simple, really.

- AA :)

If someone wants more suggestions for the recording of their work, then I believe the census is the score isn't really necessary. Most performance issues in DAW's have nothing to do with a score. If someone wants more suggestions on the content of their work, I STILL think the score isn't very necessary for even a moderately trained ear. The eyes deceive, and I'm quite convinced that what happens on paper doesn't necessarily happen in sound. The only time I really feel a score is necessary is when we're talking about specific ways of indicating things to performers. So, posting a score is quite necessary for that reason. What kind of feedback do you need? If you post a score, you'll get feedback about your score. If not, you should indicate anything specific that you want comments/feedback on about your piece.

Simple, really.

- AA :)

Cannot but repeat what I have stated above: a score is as necessary as a soundfile because both complement eachother. I agree that a score can 'deceive', yet I am very much convinced that a soundfile can 'deceive'. Hence... music is a combination of both notes (= scores) and sounds (=soundfile) or are you going to deprive somebody who reads a book, the letters which make up the words so he just has the soundfiles in future to 'read'? It is exactly the same. Scores say things soundfiles do not say, soundfiles give already give you an interpretation - whether or not created by computer is a different thing - yet the eye, the memory, the intellect I think also want a piece of the cake, unless we are all becoming robots without an original self-functioning intellect, eye or memory, without any imagination as to how to perform certain passages in a score and so on....

you know, I have an Idea, .... could it be possible to upload the score but have an option like in others data fields "Private, Signed in members, Public" etc .... so I can set only my "friend" see the score, but not everybody, .... then I'd start to add all those members I trust and I respect, they would be able to comment and make happy to all of us. Right now I recall at least 15 well known membes of YC, all of them are good composers with their own stuff and don't need to steal anything.

I'm going to investigate the copyright online registration process, I knew it was on beta testing but I'll see if it's funtional already.

Ok, Seems that nobody liked that idea, but I have another,

What if we add a funtion that makes the members to read the .pdf but not download/print, like the google books (I know it is possible to cheat those systems but at least requires a little more advanced skills) so any member may listen and view the score, comment, critic, review, if the code/ActiveX or whatever works fine, the only way to copy would be capturing the screen and then re-write manually in sibelius/finale and nobody is going to spend time on that and the music would have to be super awesome.

Considering the risk of stealing music here is low, we don't need a high lever protection, just by making unable print for common people, that would give me/us the tiny amount of trust we/I need to post the score of my most important dearest works.

HOw you like the idea of this PDF Viewer, ?

(Also that would make the lazy members to post their score in PDF and not just simply upload the .sib/.mus )

I like the idea of that. A PDF Viewer would be far more safer than downloads.

Ok, Seems that nobody liked that idea, but I have another,

What if we add a funtion that makes the members to read the .pdf but not download/print, like the google books (I know it is possible to cheat those systems but at least requires a little more advanced skills) so any member may listen and view the score, comment, critic, review, if the code/ActiveX or whatever works fine, the only way to copy would be capturing the screen and then re-write manually in sibelius/finale and nobody is going to spend time on that and the music would have to be super awesome.

Considering the risk of stealing music here is low, we don't need a high lever protection, just by making unable print for common people, that would give me/us the tiny amount of trust we/I need to post the score of my most important dearest works.

HOw you like the idea of this PDF Viewer, ?

(Also that would make the lazy members to post their score in PDF and not just simply upload the .sib/.mus )

Ok good idea! Lets go for it ! Except ....

imagine someone likes your score, someone really does like it, what prevents him from copying it? The fact that it is far more tricky to print it? He/She does need to print it, He/she opens his/her computer on finale, sibelius, whatever and just starts to copy the score, note after note.... It may take a while, that is true, but if it is worth for that person, why should not he/she do not do it? So... your system is far from waterproof, but it was a good attempt.

...imagine someone likes your score, someone really does like it, what prevents him from copying it? The fact that it is far more tricky to print it? He/She does need to print it, He/she opens his/her computer on finale, sibelius, whatever and just starts to copy the score, note after note.... It may take a while, that is true, but if it is worth for that person, why should not he/she do not do it? So... your system is far from waterproof, but it was a good attempt.

It's FAR easier to print something than copying it out manually.

If you can see it on your computer screen, you can print it... it's as simple as <PrtScn> and voila!

Come on now guys, dont be so naive as to think that anyone actually wants to steal your music. ;)

It's FAR easier to print something than copying it out manually.

If you can see it on your computer screen, you can print it... it's as simple as <PrtScn> and voila!

Come on now guys, dont be so naive as to think that anyone actually wants to steal your music. ;)

My thoughts exactly. It is what I have been saying from in the beginning....

As for the rest ... there is no perfect watertight system against copying anything. Look deep into yourself: is all the software you use legal? Do not you know anybody who uses illegal software? Never mind how hard it is, somewhere somehow, ... it can be copied or cracked.

As for the rest, nobody has a control over what is been copied and performed as somebody else's his own.

In sum: let us beheave as adult grown-ups not as spoiled little children. There is no way of preventing someone of stealing something, not even when you post your music only by a soundfile; a trained ear will just take the trouble of sitting down and copying things by listening to the recording a dozen times. Hence.... why just not make life simple and post a score together with the music. It makes those, who are interested in reading scores first and listen to the recordings later, lifes much easier.

BG

It's FAR easier to print something than copying it out manually.

If you can see it on your computer screen, you can print it... it's as simple as <PrtScn> and voila!

Come on now guys, dont be so naive as to think that anyone actually wants to steal your music. ;)

My thoughts exactly. It is what I have been saying from in the beginning....

As for the rest ... there is no perfect watertight system against copying anything. Look deep into yourself: is all the software you use legal? Do not you know anybody who uses illegal software? Never mind how hard it is, somewhere somehow, ... it can be copied or cracked.

As for the rest, nobody has a control over what is been copied and performed as somebody else's his own.

In sum: let us beheave as adult grown-ups not as spoiled little children. There is no way of preventing someone of stealing something, not even when you post your music only by a soundfile; a trained ear will just take the trouble of sitting down and copying things by listening to the recording a dozen times. Hence.... why just not make life simple and post a score together with the music. It makes those, who are interested in reading scores first and listen to the recordings later, lifes much easier.

BG

I know there's no bulletproof system, if you see/listen something, is because is already on the computer and you can save it, copy etc.... I was just saying that if what we need is a "minimum" amount of security, that would be enough to cover the "minimum" risk if stealing,

I've seen some pdf viewer in .swf performing some kind of picture streaming that surely 95% of internet people don't know how to cheat, and the prinscreen, do you imagine copying screen, past into photo software, crop picture, resize, and re-create pdf, all that for each page ?

I disagree that members have the right to have a copy of the score in their computers, all you need is to WATCH, see if there is a flute playing a wrong low E, or a tube playing a pp motif along with an oboe ff fighting against a loud trombon section, that sort of things, probably review counterpoint structure or just follow the score while listening.

Probably many of you don't have the concience of "corruption" but I still don't like to just upload my score and say to the world like using a massive speaker "hey, here's the score of my piece, come for it"

In that case give me other ideas, but as this matter remains unchanged, I won't post the full score of certain pieces.

I begin to think that many member refuse to believe the music is what they're listening, that is "too good to be truth" and want, demand the score to find some criticable segments and only then, comment, many think that without the score you can not comment something more than "sounds good" but if you really pay attention and listen and the recording is made with GPO or one of those librarly that sound realistic enough to know what is what, you can always detect the orchestration, harmony (come on, you DON'T NEED the score for harmony) structure and all that. I think some of you want the things too easy, handle all right into your hands.

ALL THIS is when you DON'T have a clear protection for your music, .... if you have the certificate there's nothing to complain.

I will search for pdf viewers, applets or whatever, even an ActiveX that would have to be installed by members and IF I find something that really protect the score from undesired usages, and gives a moderate level of security, I will certainly suggest it to the admins.

EDIT:

You know, I begin to think my first idea was better, ..... we chose the members have access to the score, that's it, I would add Nikolas, Gardener, jcharier, jrcramer, AntiA, Berlioz, Weca, Voce, Robinjessome, jawoodruff, rolifer, Christopher Dunn-Rank, J.Lee Graham, the other graham (Heckel) Chopin, Jen, Mike, James H, ... well even Hillary.

Those member would give be true review, or you doubt of it ? , not just "it's great" and we can make the reviewers have access to the score whether the member added them or not, and forget the viewer "safety" issue.

EDIT 2:

Ups I forgot the second L in Hillary , now is fixed

Hence you would select members, thus eliminating a fair chance for an objective review, I am very sure of that.

Secondly, I suggest the rules of this forum are to be changed then, if people refuse to post scores. Henceforthward it should be no score no posting music. It is as simply as that. Music is a combination of sound and literature (notes), not just sound!

I agree one does not need to save a score on the computer, one could also read a score on the computer. I agree with you on this point.

bg

Secondly, I suggest the rules of this forum are to be changed then, if people refuse to post scores. Henceforthward it should be no score no posting music. It is as simply as that. Music is a combination of sound and literature (notes), not just sound!

That's just silly. Scores don't always apply and we'd have a verbal uprising if the powers that be made judgment calls on which types of postings require scores.

... I suggest the rules of this forum are to be changed then, if people refuse to post scores. Henceforthward it should be no score no posting music. It is as simply as that. Music is a combination of sound and literature (notes), not just sound!

I disagree... there's often some musical mediums that simply aren't conducive to a written score. Many electronic forms, improvised musics...

"Music is a combination of sound and literature (notes)" ... again, I disagree... "literature" is simply a notation of the music, a written visual representation used to allow other people to perform it.

Do you bring a score when you go to the symphony?

Do you ask for the script when you go see Shakespeare?

Do you demand to see the blueprints when admiring some interesting architecture?

:huh:

Some folks don't want to post their scores; some don't have an effective means of creating a score; some write music which has no score. Perhaps their reviews will be less detailed, but that's nobody's concern but their own.

Get over it.

"literature" is simply a notation of the music, a written visual representation used to allow other people to perform it.

To be fair to our non-seeing musicians, music notation is not always a visual representation of sound (Braille notation is graphic but not visual for those who typically use it).

Some folks don't want to post their scores; some don't have an effective means of creating a score; some write music which has no score. Perhaps their reviews will be less detailed, but that's nobody's concern but their own.

Get over it.

That pretty much sums it up!

I disagree... there's often some musical mediums that simply aren't conducive to a written score. Many electronic forms, improvised musics...

"Music is a combination of sound and literature (notes)" ... again, I disagree... "literature" is simply a notation of the music, a written visual representation used to allow other people to perform it.

Do you bring a score when you go to the symphony?

Do you ask for the script when you go see Shakespeare?

Do you demand to see the blueprints when admiring some interesting architecture?

:huh:

Some folks don't want to post their scores; some don't have an effective means of creating a score; some write music which has no score. Perhaps their reviews will be less detailed, but that's nobody's concern but their own.

Get over it.

Do not have much time for an elaborate answer, yet would like to point out a couple of things:

Why should I get over it? This is a forum dealing with music. It is a forum where people can discuss the work of others. If you do not have a score, you are not a composer but an improvisor. There is nothing wrong with that, Beethoven, Mozart used to improvise a lot.

Composing music is writing down your music using a - whatever - notation system, so other people can perform it. I remain at my point of view: having music posted with a score should be obligatory.

Personal thought: your label said your are a moderator. As a moderator - but that me be due to my knowledge of the English language, which is different for a non-native speaking person as for speaking person - you give the impression of being rude and impolite. I have as much right to be on this forum as you and to express my opinions and defend my ideas as much as you. I do not need a bullying sounding "huh". 2) as a moderator, but perhaps also that is changed, I always thought one should remain objective, which in your case is not the case.

If you do not have a score, you are not a composer but an improvisor.

Composing music is writing down your music using a - whatever - notation system, so other people can perform it. I remain at my point of view: having music posted with a score should be obligatory.

If you don't pour your musical thoughts into a score you may not be a composer in the "classical" sense, but the idea of what a composer is and does has changed immensely over the past 100 or so years. You do not need to write your music down to be a composer. Are you suggesting that there were no composers during the times when music was solely an aural tradition (or that current music passed on aurally lacks composers)? While the term "composer" may not have been used and the idea of composer as a profession may not have existed, there were still originators of music, people that we would would label as composers today.

Additionally you do not necessarily need other people to perform your work. And improvisation is a form of composition.

A composer may be defined as "one that writes music," but that is no longer accurate (or perhaps never was?), considering the broadest definition of "write" ("to indicate; mark"). A composer is simply an artist whose medium is sound (or vibrations, if you prefer).

Why should I get over it? This is a forum dealing with music. It is a forum where people can discuss the work of others.

All I mean is, you've made your position clear...it's time to let it go. It is a forum where people can discuss the work of others...something easily accomplished regardless of having a score or not.

If you do not have a score, you are not a composer but an improvisor.

Wholly inaccurate, as I tried to point out. I expect a vast majority of electronic and incidental musics are created sans score. Just because something is created and developed using a method that's not conducive to a written format doesn't negate it's value as music or as a "composition".

Composing music is writing down your music using a - whatever - notation system, so other people can perform it.

No....Notating music is writing it down so other people can perform it. Composing is another thing altogether.

The point is, there's a reason we haven't adopted obligatory score requirement. It's simply not a reasonable request.

Personal thought: your label said your are a moderator. As a moderator - but that me be due to my knowledge of the English language, which is different for a non-native speaking person as for speaking person - you give the impression of being rude and impolite. I have as much right to be on this forum as you and to express my opinions and defend my ideas as much as you. I do not need a bullying sounding "huh". 2) as a moderator, but perhaps also that is changed, I always thought one should remain objective, which in your case is not the case.

I apologize if I come off as rude or impolite. There was no bullying implied, I was simply trying to explain how/why requiring a score on this site isn't a good idea.

Also, I don't understand how I'm being unobjective in this matter... to remain objective shouldn't one be open to all music on this site, whether a score is included or not?

I guarantee you one thing, Mozart wouldn't have needed somebody's score to make poignant comments about the structure, form, harmony, instrumentation, themes, textures, articulations, orchestration, concept or feel of their piece.

Hey that was a worse idea than mine, ... you just can't demand the posting of the score in the site rules or more than a half of members will leave, and don't forget the Electronic section, where there's NO score.

I think you're all forgetting something, I said, have the option to choose "Public" "Logged in members" and "Private", if someone don't want to have to adding friends and all that mess, just select "public" or maybe "Logged in mebers" , I would choose "Logged in members" in most cases, and in this way YC does not force anything, only offer options, if someone select public and then complain of possible stealing, that would his problem.

or if the PDF viewer works good enough, fast, and moderately safe, well ....

I remember the QcCowboy's Symphony in C, he didn't post the score didn't he ? why you think he did that, because he was afraid to get too bad reviews ?, no I don't think so, I remember have seen "I posted only for enjoy" something like that, like saying "just listen"

I would like to know the good/bad aspects of these possible actions taken to the score posting behavior, not just personal opinions but about true, practical and funtionality matters, if it's easy, difficult, would make everything slower, won't work on many browsers, .... real thing. and all this is open for a third, fourth option....

Because this site is some kinda limewire/kazaa/ares to get brand new scores, and is really easy to find a score here and do something undesired, maybe not as bad as send it to the office and then make a million dollars with the score, but could happen a sort of innocent plagary, like a student that can not write a thing, come here and present the stolen score as his homework.

Now YC is having many changes could be the time to prevent and protect all our score, actually it is possible that have already happened and we didn't even know.

I am astonished that nobody has identified one of the most basic reasons for submitting a score.

Music is temporal, that is, it exists as a process in time. It is therefore very difficult to identify tangible parts of it when it is being performed. A score is simply a visual representation of the sounds in this performance process and therefore allows us to identify a precise point in it. It's infinitely easier in reviewing to say 'your voice-leading in the horns is poor on the second and third beats of bar 45 in the second movement' than 'your voice-leading in the horns is poor in that bit where it goes into 5/4 after the loud bit with the drum and high flutes but before the start of the fugue in the strings about ten minutes from the beginning'. Which is more practical?

Consider something else: a score allows us to see what's good too. I challenge anyone to appreciate all the tricks of orchestration just by listening: would you really spot Ravel's divided string harmonics underneath the winds? Elgar's use of the cor anglais and second horn on just in the accented notes of the melody? Bruckner's voicing of a brass chord using the overtone series? Penderecki's extended techniques? Good writing jumps from the page as much as from sound waves.

of course having the score is better, all what I want is protection for it, I'm not promoting the not-posting of the score, I only say there are other matters that we have to take care off.

@SIWI perfectly summarized my point of view elaborating on my thoughts. Thank you! That is exactly what I mean, especially the last phrase: good music jumps as much from the score as from a sound file and indeed, some things cannot be detected if you do not have the score by hand, as you so adequatly demonstrated in the few given examples that is exactly why I hammer so much on having a socre posted along with the soundfile, eventhough as a conductor my ears are still fine.

@ DMA: you sound/look 'scared' as hell that somebody would 'steal' your music. I have not yet listened to any of your scores but they either must be excellent to the extreme or a second possibility, you must not have much inspiration so you cling to the inspiration you have. There is no waterproof system for nobody, neither for the professional, nor for the amateurs. That is the risk of being an artist, it always has been and for some time to come, it still will be. You cannot expect to be known and respected as a writer if you do not write down books but just recitate books (oral tradition in the west, although still existing in some parts of the world, I know) is not in practice anymore or at least far from common; you cannot be known and respected as a painter if the only thing you do is buying blank canvases giving them the names of your imagined , .... . Admittedly there are types of music which do not require scores, I know that, but... that was not the initial starting point of this whole discussion. We were dealing here with the 'traditional' (by lack of a better word in my vocabulary) type of music which generally is laid down in a score. For reasons I mentioned at large and again throughout this thread supplemented by other postings such as the one by SIWI, I remain at my point of view: a score is necessary, as a written down book is necessary for a writer and a painted canvas is necessary for a painter; we are not different, we do not make an exception.

One of the issues causing this 'eager' to not to post scores could perhaps have to do with using the computer for composing purposes. About 30 years ago, when studying music, you wrote and rewrote a score, until it was perfect. The chances of having it performed, let alone published, were slim. You could call yourself lucky when, in composition class, you had the chance of having your work 'performed' in a try-out by some fellow students or the choir of the royal conservatory (equals high school for music), very rarely you it was performed by an orchestra. Perhaps the circumstances were not ideal for studying compostion or orchestration, but the only thing we had to discuss was the score. If there would have been no score, there would not have been much to discuss. So we sat down, analysed and discussed scores of the Great and the less great as well as new works of are fellow students. You always started off by making a pianoscore even when the work was intended for a large orchestra.

Orchestration was taught for a large part using piano reductions: you either reduced a composition to a piano score or you used a reduced piano score and you listened to a disc trying to identify which music played what after which you tried to put it on paper and compared your results to the original composition. You not only learned to read orchestral scores, but also learned which instruments played together, which instruments sounded great, less great, which effects could be obtained and how certain composers achieved certain effects in their works.

Again, it was not perhaps the best way to study orchestration, yet learned you to listen and listen again, to rewrite, correct and write again.

Music notation software has the advantage of producing 'instant music': you can hear immediately what you write down.

I admit voluntarely that music software has its advantages, but as always it has it advantages when used as it should be used. What I have seen on this and other sites - or in school for that matter - are very easily satisfied. People make here compositions for large orchestra, when they have not even tried out their skills on minor forms. An idea comes in their mind and ok... that is it, we go on to the next bar. A guy once said to me about one of his compositions on sibelius: 'I know it is not good, but I have written it and I am not going to change it.' So, if you know it is not good on forehand, what is the use of posting it? So we produce, produce and produce like work on a chain. Could it be that those who are so reluctant not to post scores here, are also those who are producing scores llike three in a hour?

As for myself, I do not post scores here because there are not digital scores to be posted. I still write music the way I learned it, oldfashion perhaps, but it still works for me: making a pianoscore, going to the desk and copying it out for the instruments it is intended for. OK, I sometimes have to rework bits and parts after a first try-out, but I think it gives me a good instrumental orchestration feeling, something which I often lack in compositions presented here. And yes, ... it gives me the possibility of having a clear overview of structure and so on in a nutshell.

In short, this is perhaps why I insist so much on having scores presented here: it supplements eachoter as is pointed out by other people. It are not two different seperate things but form one element.

I sound/look scared ? .... yeah ... maybe, well I'm not, or I'd remove all my posted scores, actually I think the main issue is kinda lost here, this is not about if the score is better or not, of course it is.

my position here is very easy, and I'll make it short and clear:

I'm for the posting of the score, all I would like to see is a minimum protection for it, that's it.

If I would be against the posting of scores I wouldn't be asking those measurements, they would be useless if we are not going to post, actually I want to post all my scores, small, large, important, all of them.

I'm sure there's something we can do to find a reasonable balance on this aspects. We must stop arguing and think, think, what if we find a really cool idea that satisfy us all. (and IF we don't find that, we just leave it the way it is, .... fair enough ? )

these are the scores I've posted:

here and here in orchestral, this one in Jazz, Bad, Pop, Rock, .... My other were in Electronic,