Compose Music through the Web

If we were to eventually add a notation program where members could compose music through the web on YC, would this be something you guys would take advantage of? What if this web program integrated into this site was able to convert Sibelius and Finale files into a universal format so that you could share your notation with each other, would this feature be something you would pay for?

Please answer the following questions: Would you use our web application (and pay for it) if it:

1. Just displayed your music (was able to read Finale and Sibelius files, and the only purpose would be to share your sheet music in an easy way)

2. The program displayed your music and had all the functionality of Sibelius and Finale (where you could actually use the program to compose music).

The differences between the two options are clear. One option would only be a reader. The other option would be a reader AND a notation software replacement tool. I want to see if people would actually use a fully functional notation tool on the web to create music, or if they would prefer to use the tool just to display their music. Or neither.

I wouldn't pay for it because I already have Finale, and don't want to pay for something that I can already do like make music on Finale and produce MP3's and scores. Or am I not understanding the purpose of this?

This sounds like a cool addition to the site.

I wouldn't use a "reader" much myself, because I think .pdf files suffice, it would be very interesting to have a notation software on the website though. Especially if you could save your files on the server, so you could log in from any computer and work with your pieces. It certainly depends on the cost though.

I might be missing the point, but considering I have Finale I don't need built-in notation software on this site. I like posting .pdfs, and creating a .pdf file from any notation program is simple to do with free third party software. The viewer seems pointless when we can just use .pdfs. So no I would not pay for and use what you are suggesting.

I wouldn't pay for it because I already have Finale, and don't want to pay for something that I can already do like make music on Finale and produce MP3's and scores. Or am I not understanding the purpose of this?

Well, it could be a good way to share music, sort of like a wiki if you allow certain friends to edit the music. It's also a quick way to playback music directly through the web so you can see the score while it plays back in real time. The monthly fees (combined with user space) could be more cost effective than keeping up to date with Sibelius/Finale as well, for those of you who can't afford the major software packages.

I like the idea of allowing friends to edit it, and following along on the score as it plays in the same window. Can I make a suggestion: Allow scrolling while the song is playing. I'm sick of never seeing what the strings are playing in finale when composing for an orchestra because it's to low down. Sometimes even the brass is invisible!

How much would it be around, and would it be a set rate or a monthly one?

How much? I am not sure yet, I just want to engage interest first. I spoke with a company called Note Flight www.noteflight.com after seeing someone from this site advertise it. I might be able to license the software, but they would have to do some work on their end before I agree to any terms or conditions (for example, we'd have to implement the wiki idea I just suggested, and also read Sibelius and Finale files correctly). Depending on this company's ability to work with me for the things I need, it's possible we may work together. But I have to see if there would be an interest for this.

The monthly fee's could be anywhere from $20 or $30/month, but I have to have another conversation with Note Flight.

It's an interesting idea. I could see some benefit from it - for instance, if I was out of town and didn't have my laptop. I could upload my scores here and then utilize the program to continue work on my projects while out of town. I don't know though... I have a laptop for that - other's may not though.

There could be some very interesting applications of letting others edit music on the site, I'll give you that. That part intrigues me but my position is still no to the idea. Paying $30 a month would be more expensive than purchasing and maintaining Finale or Sibelius with a student/educator discount. Of course I get that there would be other perks but it's not worth it to me (I also have a laptop). Looks like we're heading toward the cloud...

What would you be willing to pay? What if reviews here were given in a different way? For example, users can comment on parts of your works within the scores?

The commenting on works within scores would be a GREAT benefit of the program. For instance, we reviewers would be able to mark areas that need improvement and suggest better orchestrational combinations. I don't like the idea though of others editing my work themselves via the program - just the thought of others making additions to my music.

I don't like the idea though of others editing my work themselves via the program - just the thought of others making additions to my music.

This could be a permission thing. For example, you could let certain people make edits if you desire. The benefit of this is during a student/teacher event, where the teacher can guide the student by making his edits, and his edits can be reverted, or seen in a history setting (like Media Wiki, just with music).

This could be a permission thing. For example, you could let certain people make edits if you desire. The benefit of this is during a student/teacher event, where the teacher can guide the student by making his edits, and his edits can be reverted, or seen in a history setting (like Media Wiki, just with music).

Now, in that aspect that would work great. I have 2 students myself.. so this would be beneficial - beats sending files via IMs.

If there are any other nuisances of music sharing, please state them here. The purpose of YC is to solve problems and address needs. If editing and commenting directly on music files through the web solves an inconvenience (so that you don't have to send music files back and forth) I believe we may have uncovered an untapped market.

What would you be willing to pay? What if reviews here were given in a different way? For example, users can comment on parts of your works within the scores?

Now that's a nice idea. Maybe $10-$15 a month for these upgrades would be worth it, but truthfully I don't know that I'd stick around. Would there still be free accounts? I like the idea of keeping this site simple and free, but I know that free part can get tricky.

Yes of course, you wouldn't be forced to use this functionality. The functionality would only exist if you paid. Otherwise, you could still use the site as normally used. The problem is, I can't offer this functionality for free. So I would have to think about what to do in cases where the user once paid for the functionality, but doesn't want to pay for the account any longer, and what to do with all of his existing music written through the web.

I'd rather see all this be unpaid. The more hoops you make people jump through, the less you retain. Maybe there could be a better version of it that's paid, but why not hook up with noteflight? get some cross-pollination?

The problem with working with someone else is that there are no strings attached, so they can cut us loose if we are not making them money. Obviously this will hurt my reputation, so the only way to really work with these guys is if I had part interest or influence of their company (which is a long shot). So it is a bit tricky doing business this way, but can be done if both parties cooperate. Of course the best way to implement this idea is by doing it ourselves, but development costs are around $150,000 to $200,000, or more, for something of this magnitude. Since I am just one person, there is no way I have that kind of money. NoteFlight already has 75% of what we need developed, so there is no point in reinventing the wheel. They may not cooperate with us, but who ever said business was easy. Look at all the difficulties we are having trying to perfect our own network! I am surprised I even got this far with the site, we went through so many hurdles.

Noteflight is an excellent service, but I'm not so sure about this Sibelius/Finale conversion...I've yet to see anyone reliably and accurately convert between the two formats, and I suspect that being able to read/write to them would require access to the proprietary coding, which I somehow doubt the companies would be willing to readily give out.

It's a nice idea to be able to work on one's scores via Noteflight's system and have it integrated with the forum such that people can comment/leave notes on the score (with permission) and view a scrolling version of the score for playback....but why would people pay for that here when they can access it on the Noteflight site for free?

Anyway, it's a nice pipe dream but I think we should focus on polishing the network system and making sure it actually works and reliably does what we want it to do before embarking on another major integration. Let's win back some members and gain new ones before we make another leap. :)

Gee, if you upload the midi to your program, any program can read it. It's what I'd do for a lot of people with the score in nwc or something on the old server -- take their midi and import it into my program.

I'll email noteflight for you to see if you could hook something up if you want. I'm sure something could be worked out, and I actually had a similar idea before.

Feel free to email them, I spoke on the phone with a person named Elizabeth about this. She told me she would speak to their president about licensing, but I am unsure if that is what we need right now. But if they see that their product is being spoken about on our site, maybe it will help our cause and perhaps we can influence how the product is developed. So emailing the company and telling the company that you are a member of Young Composers would be appreciated. Also, do you know anything about their social network? I didn't even know they had one, but she told me they had 50,000 members on their network.

It's not really so surprising that they have such a great network size, is it? Think about it: they were the first browser-based notation program available — that's a HUGE market to tap into. We're a forum. One of many, and we're only now sort of starting to implement features that not every other forum has, which means we don't have the uniqueness factor going for us. If I were them I wouldn't even consider such an integration unless the primary feature was to highlight their service, in which case I'd still want control over the forum....something tells me they might be reluctant to relinquish that for a partnership.

They may well recommend that we sign up as an educational institution though, in which case YC as a whole would be able to split the yearly costs of the system — the more members sign up, the lower the cost. Just a thought...

I just haven't seen the network, unless they close it off to the public. I haven't signed up so maybe it is only a network that can be accessed after a sign up.

which means we don't have the uniqueness factor going for us

Do you really think YC is like any other music forum out there? We are trying to do a good job with reviewing works, not sure how many other sites out there offer this. Anyway, the network should be quite unique, I just don't think it is presented well yet. Give it another month or two.

The uniqueness factor go me thinking - I noticed that finale, sibelius, all the browser-based notation software, they're all pretty much the same! If we had a revolutionary new idea, I'm sure Noteflight would team up with us if we were to allow them to manufacture the product using our idea. We could either get it on our forum as pay, or get payed in money even to make our own or something?

No, and no. Like mentioned before, Finale-Sibby conversion is just too gruesome and asking people to use a web app would be asking people out of their comfort zones. This idea for Noteflight is an idea worth developing, completing, and maturating, but I don't think it's for us. Maybe somewhere years down the road, but I can't see this being added to our plate right now. We can't even get our own network to work properly without pouring endless effort into it. All that aside, no - I wouldn't use this web notater even if it was free and guaranteed to work properly. I'd rather just work in Finale and upload my mp3's and pdf's.

The commenting on works within scores would be a GREAT benefit of the program. For instance, we reviewers would be able to mark areas that need improvement and suggest better orchestrational combinations. I don't like the idea though of others editing my work themselves via the program - just the thought of others making additions to my music.

This can easily be done in Adobe.

Also, ever heard of Sibelius Scorch? Half of this idea is already out there.