Order of larger horn sections?

I know how it is organized in a 4-horn setting, but how is the seating and the order of high and low distributed in a horn section of 6 like The Planets or 8 as film composers have used?

Thanks,

Thomas

Higher: 1,3,5,7

Lower: 2,4,6,8

Higher: 1,3,5,7

Lower: 2,4,6,8

Sometimes.

Other times its like this:

[in order]

1

3

4

5

2

7

6

8

...sometimes.

And how do you know?

And how do you know?

Study of Mahler and Stauss.

There was an historical reason for ordering horns 1&3 2&4 early on, but I doubt it matters to anyone anymore, and it no longer has any bearing in contemporary music anyway, so you can safely order your horns as you see fit. If you plan on scoring two horns on a single staff, however, it might be better for spacing if you were to employ the old standard.

There was an historical reason for ordering horns 1&3 2&4 early on, but I doubt it matters to anyone anymore, and it no longer has any bearing in contemporary music anyway, so you can safely order your horns as you see fit. If you plan on scoring two horns on a single staff, however, it might be better for spacing if you were to employ the old standard.

It does. That's why composers still do it.

Justin, I know why they used to do it, but why does it still matter now? I'm working with some of Frank Zappa's music at my day job, and he for one never bothered with it. I'm not challenging you by any means - you're way more up on contemporary orchestration than I am - I just want to learn.

Justin, I know why they used to do it, but why does it still matter now? I'm working with some of Frank Zappa's music at my day job, and he for one never bothered with it. I'm not challenging you by any means - you're way more up on contemporary orchestration than I am - I just want to learn.

Idk, it varies from composer to composer. The majority of contemporary composers that I've seen try to follow the tradition though its no longer a uniform technique.

Several modern composers list 1,2,3,4. I'm actually not sure why it is traditionally done 1,3,2,4...maybe so there was a high and low voice in case there were only 2 players? I really don't know, but it is certainly a mixed practice today. Composers like John Mackey use 1234 today.

Several modern composers list 1,2,3,4. I'm actually not sure why it is traditionally done 1,3,2,4...maybe so there was a high and low voice in case there were only 2 players? I really don't know, but it is certainly a mixed practice today. Composers like John Mackey use 1234 today.

The tradition stems from the classical period orchestra. Initially there were only two horns, always in the same key, one high one low. Then some more ambitious composers asked for a second pair in a different key to add to possibilities. So they became distinct pairs that didn't intermingle very much. However, upon the introduction of the chromatic horn, there was no reason to have the pairs separated. However, composers were slow to adapt to the F Horn and sometimes used horns in other keys as late as Strauss (usually on the justification that it was easier to play in different keys). Gradually the Horn in F became the standard post-Wagner, but the tradition of the numbering stuck even though it doesn't mean anything of a practical nature today.

Yeah, the only reason why generally the 1/3 2/4 is still kept in newer music is that orchestra hornists are specifically employed either as high (1,3) or as low horns (2,4) (one typically specialises in one while studying). So sticking to the traditional order has the slight advantage that you can simply give the odd numbered horn parts to your orchestras high hornists and the even numbered ones to the low hornists without having to study the score in detail to see the ranges of each part.

So if you write for, say, a symphonic orchestra with more or less classically trained hornists (which therefore will be specialised in either low or high horn) and you don't want to make use of the traditional order, then it might be a good idea to write "high horn" or "low horn" before the parts, unless it's perfectly obvious on the first glance. Of course, if you write for a non-traditional/symphonic ensemble (say, a contemporary music ensemble or a jazz band), feel free to put the horns in any order you want without any additional note, since there those conventions don't really exist in the first place and the hornists might also not be so specialised in their ranges (a hornist focusing on contemporary music will generally strive to have a quite large range regardless of personal preference, for instance).

P.S. Of course it should also be noted that the natural horn in all kinds of tunings is by far not uncommon in contemporary music. However, this has little to do with this question since in this kind of music those horns are rarely used in same-tuned pairs, but much more freely.