Orchestral equivalent of a distorted guitar?

Hello everyone, I am a composer with progressive metal influences. I have also been inspired by symphonic metal, which is basically metal backed with a full orchestra, and operatic vocals.

Sometimes when im composing orchestrated music, i want some of the backing chords to be really pronounced and forceful. But i have yet to find the perfect combination of instruments that can give the same driving force as a single heavy distorted guitar. The best i could come up with has been some combinations of drums, high velocity brass sections, and cymbals.... but it still feels kind of empty without a distorted guitar. I have even tried using power drum kits.

Any advice on what orchestral instruments could go together to get the sound im looking for? I really want nice pronounced staccato chords.

Low Strings in 5ths and octaves, a la power chords + Low brass in octaves...BAM!

The orchestral equivalent of a distorted guitar?

A distorted guitar.

What about some extended techniques with the brass? There is a trick that professionals can do where they can make their instrument sound like a motor. It's a very strange yet powerful sounding effect. I think it would give you those extra overtones that distorted guitars there characteristic sound.

So maybe it's low brass playing perfect 5ths doing this motor sounding effect.

What do you think about that? Does anyone know what that brass technique is called?

Peace on Earth,

-John

Its not necessarily the sound of the distortion guitar i want to imitate, just the feeling. Orchestral instruments sound so "soft" compared to the hard sound of a chord played through a distorted amp. But if there is one instruments that seems notorious for crappy VST imitations, its the distorted guitar. So i am trying to figure out how to get that really heavy chord sound. I guess the closest thing that i mean would be the "orchestra hit" but that just sounds plain crappy and obtrusive. Not to mention the lack of control you have over it. So basically i want to fabricate an orchestra hit from its individual components to make it sound like an actual orchestra.

What do you think about that? Does anyone know what that brass technique is called?

Low harsh fluttertounging. Sometimes multiphonics are also used (singing into the instrument while playing). This piece uses a lot of those:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#v=cWHc_jXzqa4

Check out Symphobia String-Brass patches. Anyway, I think the best way to do it is with combinations of strings and brass. I'd go with basses, cellos, trombones and horns, arranged to play in octaves, 5ths and parallel 4ths. You gotta work on the dynamics there. But still symphonic metal requires metal, I don't see why would you want to make an orchestra sound like a electric guitar if you already have a guitar. Oh yeah, one more thing that really adds the hit in the "orchestral hit" sound is the anvil which is fairly often overlooked. Another thing you might want to trow in there are timpani and piano in the bass register. Symphobia has this patches that are like multis, they consist of multiple instruments, some of them would in my opinion fulfill your needs. For example one good patch is String-brass section with piano and timpani. When you hit a riff on that thing it just sounds evil :D

Also: Strings playing with overpressure. You can also play with different degrees of sul ponticello while doing that. This is distortion.

Of course, you're out of luck trying to get these effects precisely with sample libraries.

The main problem with orchestras however is distance. An electric guitar picks up the string directly, which is then distorted and played back via speaker(s). With a live orchestra it's very hard to get the same degree of directness, because the usual setting for an orchestra is a relatively large hall, where the audience has quite some distance to the instruments. The sound you get there may certainly be very loud, but it's almost impossible for it to be softened somewhat by the room reflections and air, until it arrives at the listener.

So, in order to really get some kind of "rock" sound from an orchestra, the best choice is still to use microphones and amplifiers to get a really "close" and direct sound. You don't even need distortion or anything for that (you can use extended techniques for such things, if you want), but the amplification alone will change the perceived sound.

But again: This question is a different one as soon as you're dealing with sample libraries. So the question is: What exactly are you writing for? If you -are- just writing for sample libraries and not real instruments, I see no reason not to use software effects on them in the first place.

Well i am writing for myself, and using only virtual instruments. I dont really want to use actual distortion effects, they tend to be too obtrusive and distracting, especially on the cheap VST's im working with. I Think what it really comes down to is layering octaves and 5ths like others were saying. I have tried it in the past with low strings, brass, and piano, but found that it was very powerful, but not very pronounced. It seems that without higher frequencies, it doesnt stand out very much. So i think i need to find the right combination of low and high octaves with the right instruments.

Thanks for your input everyone!

have a go with the harpsichord, the ultimate badass baroque instrument :)