Help for an amateur composer in counterpoint

Hi Everybody,

I'm just amateur that only tries to play a good music in the violin, but I suddenly have the need of compose some music, specifically I want to compose in counterpoint, i have read some articles but i think i need help in parts like in harmonics to understand quite well all the articles, i hope someone can help me in musical theory (specially to create a melody basis in modes)and counterpoints advices.

I hope someone else can help me I will trully be thankful.

thanks again.

A good reference would be to study species counterpoint. Fuchs (or Fux) method is quite common to study - and you can get that book at most online book stores even.

A good reference would be to study species counterpoint. Fuchs (or Fux) method is quite common to study - and you can get that book at most online book stores even.

So do you think it will have how to compose with modal music? because I really need to understand how it behaves the modal music in the melody, thanks again

Well, when I studied counterpoint, my composition teacher had me use the modes to do my exercises. So, I would say yes.

Fux's book (as well as probably five others) are even available online on PDF for free.

Fux's book (as well as probably five others) are even available online on PDF for free.

Thanks so much iappreciate eveerything i would look for it, thanks so much

stop! don't order the book. It has great introduction to everything and it's a fine book - but then you write your exercises and what? Get a teacher to check it for you? time and time again?

I'm only saying this cause I'm REALLY fond of http://www.ars-nova.com/cp/ this application that has instructions and lessons and check everytime you have something ready.

stop! don't order the book. It has great introduction to everything and it's a fine book - but then you write your exercises and what? Get a teacher to check it for you? time and time again?

I'm only saying this cause I'm REALLY fond of http://www.ars-nova.com/cp/ this application that has instructions and lessons and check everytime you have something ready.

Wow I checked hte software, and is great, i will take a look of this software, this is a great help, thank so much, i hope all the composers can take look at it.

Great thread guys, I'm just going to shift you over into Advice & Techniques which is where threads like this belong (as a note for the future). Carry on! :happy:

Also as a primer there is a basic counterpoint thread to start you off here at YC - if you don't mind me tooting my own horn

Also as a primer there is a basic counterpoint thread to start you off here at YC - if you don't mind me tooting my own horn

Thanks to everybody, it has been helpful, because, to create 4 independent melodies at the same time, is hard for me, thanks, so much, if you guys have more advices, are welcome, thanks

Thanks to everybody, it has been helpful, because, to create 4 independent melodies at the same time, is hard for me, thanks, so much, if you guys have more advices, are welcome, thanks

Look at my music and if you like it then I can advise you the approach I took in learning "counterpoint". It might be enough to get you started in making "independent" melodies. Basically there are some tricks along the way that can help out but the main thing is that when most people start, IMO, they go down a dead end because most contrapuntal methods suck such as Fux's method(which is based in the Palestrina style and more of a vocal method but can be useful but generally more difficult to master because of subtle but very real stylistic issues).

In any case several pieces have pdf's with annotations of what I did.

Anyways, check it out and if your interested I'll go into more detail.

I'm not particularly fond of Fux's book mainly because it represents a conception of music that the contemporary composer usually doesn't have (considering he's interested to compose new material, and not just to emulate the past). If your goal is just to compose some kind of bach/palestrinian counterpoint than fux's work will serve you just fine, but if you just want to learn how to combine different melodic ideas then you might want to try something else. My point lies in the context which Fux's wrote his book.

Towards the end of renascence, with the counter-reform and the Trent Council, the Church felt the need to standardize polyphonical music or simply ban it. It was a belief of some priests that masses should only contain monophonical or homophonical music, since counterpoint disturbed the comprehension of the text and the clarity of the musical modes used. This sanctions were not implemented mainly because some composers, specially an Italian called Giovanni da Palestrina, showed in a public performances that counter-punctual melodies could be written while preserving the clarity and the mood of the text.

More than 100 years later Fux compiled the rules stated by Palestrina on how to create a proper polyphonical texture and published it as a workbook.

While Palestrina's technique is very rich and can be exploited by any serious composer, it only surpassed the others in popularity because it was supported by the Church. However, during the renascence, there were MANY brillant counterpoint composers, who created their works based on different and usually freer rules (Ockeghem, des Prez, Obrecht, Isaac, Willaert, Monteverdi and Gesualdo to name a few) and ignoring their work would be a shame.

That being said, IMHO the best way to study counterpoint is not to work through already stated rules in a workbook, that was created in a very specific historical context, but rather to study the history of polyphony and analyse many significant works of different periods. That's the only way to really get a feeling on how the masters of the past worked with modal voices and of course, to figure a way to do it in the present.

Honestly, Fux is a Palestrinian counterpoint influenced by 18th century practice.

If you really want to study a master of counterpoint, go to JS Bach. Study late Lassus, Josquin, gesualdo etc.

Study Mozart too - the sonatas offer a unique blend of contrapuntal and homophonic writing combined, study Hadyn quartets, look at late Beethoven quartets for more modern use of counterpoint. For 19th century onward: Brahms, Bruckner (his vocal works esp the motets), Scraibin, then Schoenberg and Webern, Reich.

Here is the proviso, to get at least an idea where all this stems from get Jeppesson's 16th century counterpoint. Why? It is exhaustive. He discusses differences between pre-Palestrina (using Obrecht and Josquin)counterpoint versus Palestrinian and 18th century. Unfortunately he does not go into great depth because it would stray to far from his goal.

Of all the theory books I return to time and time again it is the Jeppesson. There are very few that compare for its thoroughness, conciseness and utility of its exercises. I say start with this one and then explore more.

PS If you want an overview with a schenkerian slant, I believe there is a book Counterpoint from Josquin to Stravinsky. But do the Jeppesson first.

Just to throw my 2 cents in at this late date: the Fux Gradus ad Parnassum changed my life as a contrapuntal composer. It's a great starting off point; though it does focus on ancient, conservative, traditional techniques from the vantage-point of the early 18th Century, it's still the defining work on the art.

Most of the great Baroque, Classical and Romantic composers studied from it or were at least familiar with it. Bach thought highly of it. Haydn carried around his dog-eared copy of Fux all his life, annotating it and working the exercises over and over. He taught Beethoven from it as well. Spending the time to work the exercises cannot possibly be a waste - and Fux let's you know the kind of thing that would be a mistake through his dalogue with the student. Having worked the exercises, it is no stretch at all the apply what you've learnt to more contemporary applications.