Expanded chords and their usage

So recently I began experimenting with making progressions with a bit more unusual chords, like sixths, ninths etc... but sometimes a particular chords breaks the flow, if I use it in conjuction with ordinary triads... recently I've found that removing certain tones from the chord works nice, for example I'll remove a 5th from a ninth chords, so it has the same number of tones like all the other chords in the progression. I'm just interested in your opinions and experiences with this, I couldn't really find anything in the books about this particular problem.

As you move beyond simple triads and common 7th chords, you'll find that there are less rules because there is less direct voice leading or that it's covered under other things. What's a 10th chord but a normal triad with the soprano taking the 3rd? An 11th is a 4-2 chord, which is most of a 3rd inversion 7th chord -- y'know?

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but just play and listen; books can't argue with your ears.

First of all: there is no such thing as a 10th chord. Chords are build with thirds. Otherwise you really don't make any sense....

I have to say I also think that mixing bigger chords with triads can break the flow unless done carefully. It all has to do with tension and repose. Bigger chords have bigger tension than triads, and a triad following can be an anticlimax.

As an excercise I encourage you to play through a jazz standard for example - only chords - with 5 or 6 notes per chord, just to get used to it.

First of all: there is no such thing as a 10th chord. Chords are build with thirds. Otherwise you really don't make any sense....

What music are you listening to that's only built on thirds? Come on, really? And a 9th chord is just a 2nd chord... that sure ain't a third.

I have to say I also think that mixing bigger chords with triads can break the flow unless done carefully. It all has to do with tension and repose. Bigger chords have bigger tension than triads, and a triad following can be an anticlimax.

This whole talk of tension and release only made sense in the time of voice leading. As I said, extended chords do not follow leading as clearly and easily, at least from the neophyte perspective I have of leading... Maybe I'm wrong, some examples would be nice.

As an excercise I encourage you to play through a jazz standard for example - only chords - with 5 or 6 notes per chord, just to get used to it.

I would actually not suggest this, since jazz progressions are sometimes not as functional as you might think. The basic blues progression that I was taught was all dom7 chords, not the functional harmony that you might expect... Not to say that jazz shouldn't be studied, but they tend to stay within the 7th+ornamentation style as far as basic jazz goes...

Hey if you wanna be a prick - fine :)

CHORD TERMINOLOGY builds on thirds.....

OP wrote:

so it has the same number of tones like all the other chords in the progression.

which sounds to me like his chord progressions lack of a dynamic flow regarding how high in the chord (1,3,5,7,9) the chords go. If you have 5 bars of 11 and 13ths bar number six might sound awkward with a triad or in reverse. I'm not talking about voice leading but only number of different notes per chord!! An 11 chord = tension, a triad = repose with regard to the harmonic density - NOT VOICE LEADING.

And yes of course my advice is awful... Just play your blues and never know what a jazz standard is.... duh. Come on

and lastly: please - I mean PLEASE don't try to lecture me about jazz..... I hate to sound cocky but in this regard I think it's okay for me

ferko, by the standard definition of chords(which basic theory books cover) they have no 10th,11th or 14th etc, there are specific numbers which define the tension that been added to the triad chord, 10th for example is the same note as the 2nd one from the triad, hence its null.

11th belonging to minor chords only, and also it's not a standard chord "11th" or "9th", there are septichords(4 note chords consisting of triads and 7), and bigger ones which are added tension, or polychords.

phant, of course it all depends on your functions as you know very well, according to my experience you would usually continue using the same number of notes per chord to give it a homogeneous sound, for example jazzy sounds are consistent with 7th all the time, derived from blues which uses 7th on the progression.

classical chords are usually triads but full of inversions and substitutes, meaning the baroque kind of style-you wouldn't want to mix a dominant 7 chord with #9 and b13 if you want to have a homogeneous baroque sound(you would, if you wanted to make a break from it due to a change in scene??).

don't fill your chords too much with tensions(9,13 etc) unless you really want to give it that rich and full sound to it. even better, you can use only the interval which creates the most tension in the chord and double it with other instruments, especially if you want to avoid the "jazzy" sound. that's why chords with added 9 works so well(and no 7th).

click preview on John S. track from this link and listen to what a minor 2nd interval can sound on 1:00 to 1:10 (1:10 being the use of the minor 2nd interval at the peak of the progression).

Hey J -

Just to clarify. The 11th is not minor chords only, and I don't know what you mean by what follows, but chords can be written C11 or C9.

What I mean with tension and repose is actually not using the same number of notes per chord but to build it and release it appropiately.

Jazz is not 7ths always either.

Hey J -

Just to clarify. The 11th is not minor chords only, and I don't know what you mean by what follows, but chords can be written C11 or C9.

What I mean with tension and repose is actually not using the same number of notes per chord but to build it and release it appropiately.

Jazz is not 7ths always either.

show me where there is a mention of C11 chord, as far as i know the 4th note of the major root chord is AVOID! if you'll put it as tension on a higher octave and arrpegiate it might work but as a chord-never.

there is a Csus4 chord which suspends the 3.

of course Jazz is not always 7th, but its a VERY typical jazzy sound.

Jazz is not always chords either... Sorry for stepping on toes, my jazz knowledge is admittedly limited -- I tend towards "N.C." jazz anyway because I suck at bass. It's hard to harmonically analyze Brotzmann and generally fruitless for Coleman, who are two of my jazz heroes.

At any rate, bigger chords and more notes only means more options -- don't forget that you can even take a simple triad to be poly-chordal in the right contexts...

Hi J ,

I really don't know what you were talking about with this:

"and also it's not a standard chord "11th" or "9th"

yes it's good to know all the avoid notes, but nevertheless they are still there. Try explaining Bob Brookmeyer that he can't do what you just described

"if you'll put it as tension on a higher octave and arrpegiate it might work but as a chord-never."

I'm not talking about sus-chords

Hi J ,

I really don't know what you were talking about with this:

"and also it's not a standard chord "11th" or "9th"

it might be classical definition of chords for you, but there is no C11 or C13 with 11 in it, so that is not a standard chord definition.

yes it's good to know all the avoid notes, but nevertheless they are still there. Try explaining Bob Brookmeyer that he can't do what you just described

"if you'll put it as tension on a higher octave and arrpegiate it might work but as a chord-never."

I'm not talking about sus-chords

i'd love to see and hear what Bob there played or composed which consists of those particular avoid notes, really if someone can actually make an avoid chord sound intentionally harmonically as a function i'd love to hear it.

really any brookmeyer arrangement.... you pick

from the little i heard on youtube, nice bigband arrangements but no "avoid" chord, just good jazzy chords...still waiting for a link :sleep:

okay not all of them, but especially the ones mentioned in 'inside the score' - can't remember them now - point out many voicings with the 4th a minor 9th above the third in a dominant chord

show me where there is a mention of C11 chord, as far as i know the 4th note of the major root chord is AVOID! if you'll put it as tension on a higher octave and arrpegiate it might work but as a chord-never.

there is a Csus4 chord which suspends the 3.

of course Jazz is not always 7th, but its a VERY typical jazzy sound.

...

Yeah okay one of the major breakthroughs in the early romantic harmony of the early 19th century (late Beethoven, Schubert) is the suspension and resolution notes being used at the same time. That is to say in a G -> C (D T) cadence the G with 4th suspension (G C D) the B would be added at the same time (in different octaves but not always.) This is to be observed even as early as one Mozart piece (one of those loose rondos he did, if I'm not mistaken.)

But this is all child's play when you look at what tonal Schoenberg, Berg, etc do, or guys like Janacek or Grieg (late 19th century overall, including late Liszt.)

As for altogether different chord anatomy systems, there's of course Hindemith as a great example, but also the Les Six (Honegger's 7 brief pieces for piano No.3 is a wonderful example of very interesting work with extended chords.) And on the American side we have Cowell and Ives (of interest is of course Cowell's piano pieces pioneering the use of clusters and Ives' quartets, along with everyone's favourite concord sonata.)

The further you get towards the 20th century the more complicated chord anatomies become, but often the actual harmonic functions remain the same or are simpler than they appear. After all, given enough passing notes and suspensions you can't really hear what the chord is really supposed to be (early Schoenberg is a great example, but the always handy example is Wagner's Tristan) even if you could figure it out theoretically.

i don't know if you were referring to the dominant being played with its 4th, not suspending the 3...yes, everyone can say they heard somthing very simliar to that, myself included such as paco de lucia's flamencos, but never as a chord with all notes going at once to pronounce a function. again, not talking about A-tonal stuff, but functional harmony.

It seems like the debate is not about whats typical in theory, but about what is tonally possible. I personally LOVE major 11th chords. Saying that 11ths can only exist in minor is like saying 9ths can only exist in major. Both of these statements are entirely false and have no support. If someone personally is not a fan of them, thats fine, but the presence of a minor second in a major (or minor) chord can be simply incredible if done correctly.

My understanding is that 2nds, 4ths and 6ths do not exist (but are instead replaced by the same interval plus an octave, whether or not they are actually an octave up) because 2, 4 and 6 are used to denote inversions.

i don't know if you were referring to the dominant being played with its 4th, not suspending the 3...yes, everyone can say they heard somthing very simliar to that, myself included such as paco de lucia's flamencos, but never as a chord with all notes going at once to pronounce a function. again, not talking about A-tonal stuff, but functional harmony.

Who said anything about atonality?

Check late 19th century tonality and you'll find just that, and a lot more. I already gave examples, you should look them up. (Beethoven's late piano works, or Schubert's last lieder or trios.)

Careful when you say "never" and refer to the entire canon of western European music, yea?

PS: HA! I went and fished out an example for you! Ain't I nice?

Beethoven Sonata 32 Op.111 in the Arietta. Unfortunately I can't find any version online that has measure numbers(!?) but it's easy enough to spot. On here: http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/7/7e/IMSLP51811-PMLP01489-Beethoven_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_16_No_155_Op_111.pdf page (141)13, top second measure. See the suspension there? D# and F# to E and G? Notice how the G is played together with the suspension notes (D# F# G)?

"But wait a minute now," you'll say, "That's still not the 4th, it's a minor 6th" Indeed it is! I can't be bothered to find the same example with the 4th suspension, but goes to show exactly how much crazy scraggy is going on around that time. Finding one with the 4th is trivial if you bother to look. Hell maybe in the same sonata even, considering how weird it is. Look'em chords page 15 4th system second measure! And this is goddamn Beethoven, the romantic period has barely started by the time this piece was written. Later it gets much more complicated and dissonant (Chopin, anyone?)

PS2: Or how about this one? http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a3/IMSLP51805-PMLP01488-Beethoven_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_16_No_154_Op_110.pdf Sonata 31 page 13 system 4 measure 3 left hand. It's going from A (as D) to D major, but notice the A7 chord has already the D in the bass, making it effectively the 4th. You could dismiss it as it being a pedal (in D) but even so you still have that chord being repeated and the effect is not any less because of it (and it could as well be argued that it's REALLY SHORT for a pedal of any sorts, so I would dismiss it as being a pedal altogether which would put the chord precisely in the context you say doesn't exist.)

This is what also would happen if you were to have a pedal in T while you had a dominant 4-3 suspension, pretty much, and those are easier to come by.

Who said anything about atonality?

Check late 19th century tonality and you'll find just that, and a lot more. I already gave examples, you should look them up. (Beethoven's late piano works, or Schubert's last lieder or trios.)

Careful when you say "never" and refer to the entire canon of western European music, yea?

yep, that's a very "risky approach" but one can learn from it rather than just saying anything is possible?

PS: HA! I went and fished out an example for you! Ain't I nice?

Beethoven Sonata 32 Op.111 in the Arietta. Unfortunately I can't find any version online that has measure numbers(!?) but it's easy enough to spot. On here: http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/7/7e/IMSLP51811-PMLP01489-Beethoven_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_16_No_155_Op_111.pdf page (141)13, top second measure. See the suspension there? D# and F# to E and G? Notice how the G is played together with the suspension notes (D# F# G)?

what F#??? there is natural F (141)13 top second measure, and all the chords there in that measure are pedaled by the C-G riff.first one C(add#9) going to C, second is just C, third is just G9aug-which may be never be called a C11 chord if there is bass C all over the measure. chords over a pedal act like they're supposed to function without one! not the opposite.

Look'em chords page 15 4th system second measure! And this is goddamn Beethoven, the romantic period has barely started by the time this piece was written. Later it gets much more complicated and dissonant (Chopin, anyone?)

who says they weren't geniuses? and that they couldn't write ground breaking/rule breaking compositions?

PS2: Or how about this one? http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a3/IMSLP51805-PMLP01488-Beethoven_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_16_No_154_Op_110.pdf Sonata 31 page 13 system 4 measure 3 left hand. It's going from A (as D) to D major, but notice the A7 chord has already the D in the bass, making it effectively the 4th. You could dismiss it as it being a pedal (in D) but even so you still have that chord being repeated and the effect is not any less because of it (and it could as well be argued that it's REALLY SHORT for a pedal of any sorts, so I would dismiss it as being a pedal altogether which would put the chord precisely in the context you say doesn't exist.)

and the answer is the same as above. pedal doesn't make as a function harmony, it just gives a suspended sound to the chords being progressed. there is no way some one would make a cadence using a C11. you would dare to look in pieces where they use chords(the professional ones dare you), no one uses the term C11 while inside a pedal point it would simply be G7/C, which is not a function on its own.

p.s.

lol i've found an example of an OBVIOUS C11 chord in the beatles song "hey jude"

when he says "take a sad(7th) song(11th)"

what can i say, beatles rock.

Hey forgot about Hey Jude, but yeah that's an obivous example.

yep, that's a very "risky approach" but one can learn from it rather than just saying anything is possible?

Yeah, who the hell needs freedom eh?

what F#??? there is natural F (141)13 top second measure, and all the chords there in that measure are pedaled by the C-G riff.first one C(add#9) going to C, second is just C, third is just G9aug-which may be never be called a C11 chord if there is bass C all over the measure. chords over a pedal act like they're supposed to function without one! not the opposite.

Second measure. Are you blind? Page 13, first system second measure. The first chord there on the right hand and ignore the pedal point here, that's not what I'm drawing attention to so don't be daft. Both hands are on bass clef, just in case you misread. The bass being in C-G doesn't matter at all considering the dissonance is still QUITE OBVIOUS (have you heard this particular section of the piece?) considering that he's playing D# F# G at the same time where previously the seconds were minor (F nat G.) Come on now.

who says they weren't geniuses? and that they couldn't write ground breaking/rule breaking compositions?

You apparently.

and the answer is the same as above. pedal doesn't make as a function harmony, it just gives a suspended sound to the chords being progressed. there is no way some one would make a cadence using a C11. you would dare to look in pieces where they use chords(the professional ones dare you), no one uses the term C11 while inside a pedal point it would simply be G7/C, which is not a function on its own.

I only named it a pedal point to make a concession for you, but I don't really think it counts as a pedal point in any significant manner. It's a note that those chords have in common but given its length and the position I wouldn't rely on it being a pedal (considering the sections are all changing, it'd be hard to actually hear it as a pedal of any sorts as well.)

But whatever, you can't even read the music I'm not going to bother further.

Yeah, who the hell needs freedom eh?

blah what an arrogant bloke are you? considering yourself a master of freedom are we?

don't bother, please...

Second measure. Are you blind? Page 13, first system second measure. The first chord there on the right hand and ignore the pedal point here, that's not what I'm drawing attention to so don't be daft. Both hands are on bass clef, just in case you misread. The bass being in C-G doesn't matter at all considering the dissonance is still QUITE OBVIOUS (have you heard this particular section of the piece?) considering that he's playing D# F# G at the same time where previously the seconds were minor (F nat G.) Come on now.

oh dear me, i've mistaken sire!!! i've read the F clef as G!!! please forgive my arrogance!!

:facepalm:

You apparently.

now you're just being a liar as well, besides trolling-not that's its surprising.

I only named it a pedal point to make a concession for you, but I don't really think it counts as a pedal point in any significant manner. It's a note that those chords have in common but given its length and the position I wouldn't rely on it being a pedal (considering the sections are all changing, it'd be hard to actually hear it as a pedal of any sorts as well.)

But whatever, you can't even read the music I'm not going to bother further.

haha, first let's see what you can write and then we'll see what others can read.

in your crusade against me, you seem to neglect to look my previous post where I posted an example of C11. but your intention was just to humiliate someone you think is unenlightened such your holyness. how quaint.

in your crusade against me, you seem to neglect to look my previous post where I posted an example of C11. but your intention was just to humiliate someone you think is unenlightened such your holyness. how quaint.

Insults, how classy.

And yes you proved yourself wrong, what do you want me to say? Good job?

Insults, how classy.

so i'm the insulter now..

And yes you proved yourself wrong, what do you want me to say? Good job?

yes, it would be nice of you. but it wasn't. lets just continue in our ways, since we've both established somekind of profile on each other, i'm guessing a not very good one.

peace.

What the hell is going on in here?

Guys...Keep it civil, okay?!