Who actively studies the "greats"?

As in, not just listens to, but actually buys and reads and digests the scores of great composers?

I haven't really done this previously but I just ordered two Mahler symphonies and Das Lied von der Erde scores from Amazon (yes, Amazon sell loads of study scores and stuff which I never knew).

I'm really looking forward to finding out how Mahler achieved some of the effects, particularly in the 9th and Das Lied.

Obviously I analyze some of the pieces I play and think about them, but since I don't play in any orchestras, I'm not exposed to the great works in score form that often.

And of course, I have studied such masterpieces as the Prelude to Tristan und Isolde, and others.

For instructional purposes I turned to the Beethoven symphonies (particularly mvts 1,2 &3 of the 9th) to improve my skills in woodwind and small orchestra writing. Okay, that work needs a big orchestra but there are many 2222, 2 horns, strings passages and perhaps it needed a would-be orchestrator to actually play some of these works to appreciate just how detailed his writing is, touching in notes here and there so unobtrusively but always with good reason. I learned more about (w/w) dovetailing and when not to, and doubling, from Beethoven than any orchestration textbook I've seen. And string-writing for that matter.

Even trying to sightread his string quartets brought me into a close study of how he brought off some of his effects. A casual listener can pass like/dislike/indifferent judgements but perhaps it takes a would-be composer to frown and think "how on earth did he do that?"

M

study the old masters to learn the mechanics of music and form in a tonal context.

once you understand the logic of musical structure and motion which is very difficult unless you have a master composer explain exactly what is happening in the music you should move on and not dwell on the the old great composers.

the world does not need another bethoven of strauss,it needs an exciting new figure to advance the the musical vocabulary and push forward the boundaries of the new and not the old.

many compositon students get infatuated with the great composers ,thinking that they were the absolute pinnicale of musical expression.

they were in their time ,but they were also critisized for being bold and daring and new.

most of the greats were not even appreciated and reviered in there time and it was only after they died and the next generation rediscoverd their music that they were put up on a pedistal.

we have the benifit of hindsight.

we can sift through hundreds of years of music and say that this guy and that guy were revolutionary,but in their time ,most of the truly creative composers were outcast for being to bold and new.

study the common practise period of composers only to learn the physics of music and then try to be as inventive and original as possible.

muscians that dedicate their lives to learning the works of 1 or 2 composers do not do a great service to the advancement of musical appreciation.

if their dedication makes them happy and fulfils their expectations then that is a good thing and no one should critisize them for that.

there is nothing wrong in idolizing a historic muscician but if that musician was still alive i bet he would say to you ,"you have all my influence in you ,now move on and be yourself,express yourself and not just a shadow of my work"..

i am not trying to say that you should not write romantic or classical music ,what i mean is that many composers compositons echo and have the fingerprints of their idols,and when you listen to the composition you can easily identify those similarities.

this is why the best outcome is when you have many influences and not just 1 or 2 composers.

when you have many influences the creative side of your brain becomes like a rich soup that froths with new possibilities.

i might sound pretentious but this is my honest opinion.

bethoven is the classic example.

he studied all before him and not just 1 or 2 composers and apart from being an imensely talented muscician he always strived to create something new and unique.

not something that you could say "oh that sounds very Bach'ish of Mozart'ish.

i appreciate the old greats more than most because these guys took no shortcuts in their quest to undersand music. but they never dwelt on the past .they always tried to sow the seeds for the future and bring something new and fresh out and that is why i will always have the most respect for them.

I am something of a believer that true innovation mostly comes from incorrect imitation.

However, clearly some figures have literally thought: what can we do now?

I would pinpoint Schoenberg and Cage in this context - they went as far as they could with traditional techniques and literally thought - where from here?

I imagine that other great composers developed more organically, such as Wagner taking inspiration from Beethoven and Berlioz and expanding the idea of motifs and harmony, not totally disregarding what came before.

thats a good point fingernail,

we should never disregard what came before ,but we also should not dwell on it.

the move to atonal music was like the desperate "new" thing,but i belive that tonality is intristic to nature.

tonal music is not just a cultural phenomenon but is a mimic of nature.

the overtone series is the D.N.A of tonality with the fundamnetal being supported by its 5th and then its caracteristic modal stamp, the 3rd.

atonal music ,i belive ,is best used for variety and special effect,because it contradicts nature.

the world of tonal music is still ripe for invention.

the endless combinations of rhythmic,melodic etc devices leaves a lot to be discovered.

My Mahler arrived this morning, both Dover editions.

Pretty good, they even include a glossary of German terms.

I recommend! Especially since Mahler is such a great orchestrator, whether or not you like his style, the orchestration alone is exciting.

Especially one part where he has the basses play a pizzicato low C (ie. below the bottom E that is the usual bottom) - and the instruction "basses NOT an 8ve higher!". It made me think - damn, we can write outside the standard range and demand it? Cheeky bastard.

I do realise that many bass players in orchestras have extensions to that string to enable lower notes, I'd just not witnessed an example.

N.S CANZANO ,you impress me very much with your passion for music at such a young age.

most guys your age just want to be rock stars,

but you have a genuine love for music which is rare for someone your age.i wish you all the sucsses in the world.

please tell me are you studing composition?

and if not why?

Well... I have a whole bunch of study scores, ranging from J.S. Bach to Howard Hanson. In fact, I've probably spent almost as much money on scores this year as on medical textbooks... :D Which would be nice if I'd actually study them more often (but I don't exactly have the time). I've been trying to work my way through Brahms chamber music scores over the last year, and I suppose it's starting to show in my music.

All I have is the score to Rigoletto...a wide range of emotions in that opera imbedded in the music to study :happy:.

Too bad opera scores are so damn expensive (and...well...big :happy:). Anyway, I'd like to get Il Barbiere Di Siviglia and Don Giovanni (Il Travatore, too, if possible). I've listened to these operas quite a few times (they're the only CDs I can find in the house right now...there should be a bunch more elsewhere, though) and I'd love to study the actual notes and structure and what not ;). Oh, and I got the DVDs of these operas last christmas as well :D...Il Barbiere was particularly well done, IMHO.

and I've studied your mum.

Intimately.

not really...

I have read a book called "Classical Music for Dummies"...

but, I have not really STUDIED them.

I studied (though not recently) a lot of Shostakovich's music. I also have some books about the composer, too.

I think I have scores to about half his symphonies, two or three of his six concertos and some other random pieces, including his Festive Overture.

I should pay more attention to his music this year, seeing as he would have been 100 years old this year.

I have scores upon scores of Bach (Harpsichord Concertos, all the Cantatas, and the Brandenburgs), Handel (Operas, Oratorios, and Concerti grossi galore), and Vivaldi- their my idols. Well, I have them electronically, my parents would go ballistic if I printed them out, so night after night I take my huge staff paper book and copy something out... hehe. I don't know about other people, but the baroque composers just strike me as amazing, Bach's Matchless counterpoint, Vivaldi's rhythmic and melodic genius even though he had an incredibly rigid structure, and Handel's ability to make the monotonous form of Recitative-Aria-Recit-Aria from Opera Seria into a form which expressed unparalleled emotions just strikes me as amazing. (one reason I'm planning on playing Rinaldo or Ruggerio from Handel one of these days). And like Nico, I spend a lot more time than I should on music (than on school.... one reason I almost failed my English and Math finals... hehe)

I know that a good number of you might find those three boring (imagine what happened when I got my band director to have us do the Bach and Handel chorales in our book when it was their corresponding birthdays), but hey, that's just how I work. I still can't seem to incorporate Bach or Vivaldi into my music, though... well, here's hoping sooner or later I'll be able to combine their three styles with a little bit of myself.

That copying is probably doing you a lot of good!

not really...

I have read a book called "Classical Music for Dummies"...

but, I have not really STUDIED them.

There's a "Composition For Dummies" book, too, just to let you know :P...if that's what you needed...

I have like $1,000 worth of study scores, and they're all marked up. I study them hard and take it even more seriously than school...:) yeah....my parents aren't too happy about that. :blush:

Interesting to hear you say that Nico - I recently read a very similar comment made by Pat Metheny (the absolutely stonking jazz guitarist - www.patmethenygroup.com ), who became an honourary professor of music at 18 years old. It's obviously worth it (after all, if you can make a living out of composing, who needs school?).

Why is it that every time I come to this board I feel a mixture of depression, excitement, being patronized, being inspired and feeling behind and inadequate? I love it. I think.

I have not intensively studied other scores because it never occurred to me during my "I'm going to be a clarinetist" years. I mean, I've studied music that I've played, of course - it's a big part of what got me into composing - but I never thought to like, BUY a whole score for study purposes and I never had a teacher tell me to. Now that it has occurred to me with my recent studies I do, because I realized that no matter how much I notate what I hear in my head I feel like I can't progress unless I study the music that's already out there not only by listening to it, but by viewing how the composer espresses his/herself in writing to achieve that sound.

I don't know exactly what I just typed, but woo hoo!

Though I'm still very much a student, it's the finest way to learn about orchestration!

Start with a fairly uncomplicated score - classical perhaps - and follow it with a CD. Then study bits of it with and without the CD until hearing it in your mind without the CD. Be sure you can hear different effects and understand how they are achieved.

Even a string quartet score is worthwhile - Beethoven reveals some incredible scoring in his quartets. The great thing is, any spare moment of the day when you feel you have the concentration can be spent on score study.

No need to feel dispondent. Music is one of those things you never stop learning; developing. I have miles to go and glad about that!

Good luck.

:blink:

PS incidentally, this will definitely help with the situation you expressed as a problem in your "Don't touch it" topic...I think that's what it was called.

Gee, I'm subconsciously answering my own questions then just by typing on this forum! :blink: thanks!