String Harmonic notation, help?

They certainly work out fine. But the point still remains that for natural harmonics, you don't have the same freedom of intonation you have for other notes, so you do direct intonation in a very specific direction if you write natural harmonics. So whether to notate a specific note as a natural harmonic of an uneven partial greater or equal to the fifth, or whether you write it, say, as an artificial double-octave harmonic, is still a question that has clearly audible effects on the music, so it makes sense if a composer makes it very clear what he wants there. That's all I was trying to say.

As for listening scores: I don't think it matters in the end whether it's the composer who creates them, or somebody else. The point is that they are, at times, appreciated, so there's nothing wrong with creating them. I entirely agree that it's often not necessary however.

Oh, I agree with you completely. Just the notating an artifical harmonic over a natural harmonic makes a huge difference timbrally (even playing identical pitcehs). Though it is not really necessary to notate microtonal variants in the natural harmonics. If it is clear what harmonic you want, and on what string, you don't need to clutter the score with unneeded accidentals (and trust me, microtonal scores can get very cluttered).

I agree with you about the listening scores as well. While they may be appreciated, my point was that the job of the score is to make clear how the performer is to produce the sounds, as a score is a set of instructions designed to do just that. Its not composer's duty to worry himself with a "study" or "listening" score, only to make his intentions clear to the performer.

While I appreciate the attempt at taking into account the exact pitch (though the 11th isn't quite a quarter tone... you're not taking into account that 1.32 cents! :) ;)), I would advise against the microtonal accidentals for natural harmonics, especially if you're not writing a microtonal piece (which, with the exception of me and possibly one or two others, excludes everyone on this site). If you write the Bb and the string it'll come out as the correct harmonic no matter what. Throwing in that extra accidental only complicates things for the performer. It's kinda like Ben Johnston's notation system, yes it makes sense to have that accidental on an open E, but to the performer its just plain confusing. They're used to seeing a note, with a traditional accidental and a circle above it. It doesn't really matter, because with strings (sans piano, or another 12TET instrument), they're most likely playing Just intervals anyway.

But then again, the 11th and 13th harmonics really aren't the most practical to use.

Also, just to add to the "Bb with a circle" convo, in some instances -- such as with Milton Babbitt -- the composer doesn't really care whether or not the pitch is played as a natural or an artifical harmonic and thus just puts a circle over the pitch they want to sound, leaving its means-of-production up to the performer.

I didn't read this thread. Only the last post. So if I covered something that was already covered I appologize.

Sorry I was away for a while and could'nt answer.

I'm lost in your discussion about natural harmonics ,microtonal and so on.Are we talking harmonics series in general or natural harmonics specifically on violin ? on violin natural harmonics are only The four major triads corresponding to each string ,namely G-B-D, D-F#-A, A-C#-E,and E-G#-B at different octave. According to the quality of the fiddle and of the performer some natural harmonics are more theorical than practical

I'm lost in your discussion about natural harmonics ,microtonal and so on.Are we talking harmonics series in general or natural harmonics specifically on violin ?

Basically in general. Aside from the discussions on artificial harmonics, it could really apply to just about any instrument.

First of all, the harmonic series does not correspond to the 12-tone equal temperament (12TET) of the piano, hence the discussion of "microtonal" variation. Your third partial (or the 5th above your fundamental, or base note) is 1.96 cents higher than a fifth above a base note on the piano. That is to say, its 1.96 hundreths of a half step higher. Your fifth harmonic, or the 3rd above your base is 13.69 cents lower than your 3rd on the piano.

Second of all:

on violin natural harmonics are only The four major triads corresponding to each string ,namely G-B-D, D-F#-A, A-C#-E,and E-G#-B at different octave. According to the quality of the fiddle and of the performer some natural harmonics are more theorical than practical

Wrong.

The first, third, and fifth partials (and their corresponding even-numbered partals, basically the first, second, fourth, eighth, etc. are octaves; the third, sixth, twelvth, etc. are octaves; etc. etc. ) are the pitches of the corresponding Just triad (its not the same as a major triad on the piano; see above).

These are not the only overtones (I have actually calculated the harmonic series up until the 1024th partial; I think La Monte Young has used the 5000somethingth partail in some of his work). Your 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, etc. partials are not in the major triads you listed.

So if our fundamental is C, your 7th partial would be a "flat" Bb (31.17 cents flatter than 12TET), your 9th a "slightly sharp" D (3.91 cents sharpper than 12TET), your 11th about an F-sharped a quarter-tone (51.32 cents sharper than a 12TET F), the 13th an A flat about a quarter-tone (59.47 cents flatter than a 12TET A), and your 15th is a slightly flat B (11.73 flatter than 12TET).

In terms of producing natural harmonics you're really not going to go any higher than that, as that's kinda pushing it.

In a lot of cases none of this really matters. The major second (we'll ignore the octave) you get between the G and the A strings on a violin, for example, is 3.91 cents sharper than that same interval on a piano. This is because string players tune to pure fifths (so, like that second, your fifths between the open strings are 1.96 cents larger than on the piano). So yeah...

Anyway, that's some of the harmonic series for you. I'm pretty positive there are many other threads on it. I'm pretty positive that I've discussed it other threads. So you can get more info there.

I hope that cleared everything up for you.

If you have questions feel free to send me a message. <--- I guess I'll extend that invite to anyone else who reads this and has questions.

Basically in general. Aside from the discussions on artificial harmonics, it could really apply to just about any instrument.

First of all, the harmonic series does not correspond to the 12-tone equal temperament (12TET) of the piano, hence the discussion of "microtonal" variation. Your third partial (or the 5th above your fundamental, or base note) is 1.96 cents higher than a fifth above a base note on the piano. That is to say, its 1.96 hundreths of a half step higher. Your fifth harmonic, or the 3rd above your base is 13.69 cents lower than your 3rd on the piano.

Second of all:

Wrong.

The first, third, and fifth partials (and their corresponding even-numbered partals, basically the first, second, fourth, eighth, etc. are octaves; the third, sixth, twelvth, etc. are octaves; etc. etc. ) are the pitches of the corresponding Just triad (its not the same as a major triad on the piano; see above).

These are not the only overtones (I have actually calculated the harmonic series up until the 1024th partial; I think La Monte Young has used the 5000somethingth partail in some of his work). Your 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, etc. partials are not in the major triads you listed.

So if our fundamental is C, your 7th partial would be a "flat" Bb (31.17 cents flatter than 12TET), your 9th a "slightly sharp" D (3.91 cents sharpper than 12TET), your 11th about an F-sharped a quarter-tone (51.32 cents sharper than a 12TET F), the 13th an A flat about a quarter-tone (59.47 cents flatter than a 12TET A), and your 15th is a slightly flat B (11.73 flatter than 12TET).

In terms of producing natural harmonics you're really not going to go any higher than that, as that's kinda pushing it.

In a lot of cases none of this really matters. The major second (we'll ignore the octave) you get between the G and the A strings on a violin, for example, is 3.91 cents sharper than that same interval on a piano. This is because string players tune to pure fifths (so, like that second, your fifths between the open strings are 1.96 cents larger than on the piano). So yeah...

Anyway, that's some of the harmonic series for you. I'm pretty positive there are many other threads on it. I'm pretty positive that I've discussed it other threads. So you can get more info there.

I hope that cleared everything up for you.

If you have questions feel free to sendT me a message. <--- I guess I'll extend that invite to anyone else who reads this and has questions.

I'm afraid we are not talking about the same thing.The original thread was about harmonics notation with the significance of circle and diamond and careless notation with circle.So this was pure violin technique we were talking about and I maintain that we can only produce triad regardless octave actually 12-17 -19 . Artificial hamonics also yield triads.The difference is the root which is any pitch instead of open string for the natural harmonics. What your talking about is acoustics and of course harmonics/partials are then what you discribe.

First of all, no, it was not only about violin technique, but string technique in general. The title states "string harmonic notation", the OP states "violin/cello" and the follow-up question about the note with the circle didn't state a particular instrument at all.

That natural harmonics can only "yield triads" is simply wrong. I have heard (and seen) enough harmonics of higher partials (such as 7th and 10th partials in orchestral writing with almost no rehearsal time), which work perfectly fine. All you do when playing harmonics is isolating certain overtones of the normal sound, so "talking about acoustic and partials" and "talking about violin technique" coincide here - but of course always taking into account that not all partials can be produced very practically, as charliep said.

This depends on several factors however. First of all, yes, the violin doesn't quite lend itself so well to harmonics of higher partials as the larger string instruments, e.g. cello and especially double bass. On a double bass, producing the 11th or 13th partial as a natural harmonic is perfectly feasible, while in ordinary violin writing you'd usually stop a bit lower. But the 7th partial as a harmonic is realistic on any string instrument.

Some higher-partial harmonics are also easier (or more stable) to play by touching two nodes of the string instead of just one.

Artificial harmonics are obviously much more limited for reaching higher partials, since your hand is already busy stopping a string and can't move all along the string to arbitrary node positions anymore. The 7th partial can still be reached as an artificial harmonic on a violin (by touching a very flat minor third) - it's just not very stable/secure, since the node lies so closely to others (i.e. your tone may easily fluctuate between different harmonics, especially the 6th and 7th.). This depends a lot on the bowing position too, of course.

To be clear, this entire conversation is directly related to and grew out of one of Gardener's comment about the notation of harmonics. So it is very much relevant. As if the whole "its about the overtone series, i.e. harmonics" thing wasn't enough.

As Gardener mentioned, this is all interelated and relevant stuff, and stuff that any composer notating harmonics should be aware of.

Anyway, everything you've said are common and dangerous misconceptions about harmonics and string technique (as well as other instruments, brass, etc.) in general. As I said before, I would be happy to answer questions you have about the specifics of the overtone series/harmonics. I would also encourage you to do some research.

But, most importantly, go back and look at your orchestration text book and its discussion of harmonics in the string section. Or play around with a stringed instrument (guitar, viola, piano, whatever). You'll see very quickly that there is more to the harmonic series than just root, third, fifth.

I've also seen the circle notation used in reference to artificial harmonics too - generally if the composer gets lazy and doesn't want to figure out what harmonic to use ahead of time.

To be clear, this entire conversation is directly related to and grew out of one of Gardener's comment about the notation of harmonics. So it is very much relevant. As if the whole "its about the overtone series, i.e. harmonics" thing wasn't enough.

As Gardener mentioned, this is all interelated and relevant stuff, and stuff that any composer notating harmonics should be aware of.

Anyway, everything you've said are common and dangerous misconceptions about harmonics and string technique (as well as other instruments, brass, etc.) in general. As I said before, I would be happy to answer questions you have about the specifics of the overtone series/harmonics. I would also encourage you to do some research.

But, most importantly, go back and look at your orchestration text book and its discussion of harmonics in the string section. Or play around with a stringed instrument (guitar, viola, piano, whatever). You'll see very quickly that there is more to the harmonic series than just root, third, fifth.

I'm violin teacher for more than 35 years!

I'm violin teacher for more than 35 years!

Well then you, of all people, should know this! But, alas, you're absolutely, 100% wrong. There are more hamonics than just the "major triad" above a given string. WAY more.

One problem here is that everyone (not just you) has to stop reading Paul Zukofsky's out of date and very limited/somewhat-misinformed 1968 article On Violin Harmonics which comes up right away when you Google "violin harmonics". Or at least stop thinking that that's it for understanding harmonics.

Anything above the 11th partail really isn't practicle on the violin, and for some players that may even be a stretch. I don't know any violinists that can't produce the 9th partial clearly, however. That's already at least 2 pitches outside of your "major triad".

The lower you get (cello, bass), the more partials you can get. The 11th, 13th, and even 15th become clearer and more practical, etc. Suddenly your "major triad" has 5 extra pitches!

While they get less stable the higher up the series you go, and some are "more out of tune" and possibly less useful for SOME composers, the fact of the matter is that they exist and, more importantly, are used by many composers in many works.

Even so, the fact that the 7th partial (which is outside of your "triad) can be produced on ALL strings of the violin is an indication that you are very misinformed regarding what your instrument can and can't do, since you maintain that the only possible harmonics are the first, third, and fifth partails (and obviously, their octaves).

Unfortunately, though, you're not the only musician I've talked to that isn't aware of your instrument's full potential and wide range of abilities.

Well then you, of all people, should know this! But, alas, you're absolutely, 100% wrong. There are more hamonics than just the "major triad" above a given string. WAY more.

One problem here is that everyone (not just you) has to stop reading Paul Zukofsky's out of date and very limited/somewhat-misinformed 1968 article On Violin Harmonics which comes up right away when you Google "violin harmonics". Or at least stop thinking that that's it for understanding harmonics.

Anything above the 11th partail really isn't practicle on the violin, and for some players that may even be a stretch. I don't know any violinists that can't produce the 9th partial clearly, however. That's already at least 2 pitches outside of your "major triad".

The lower you get (cello, bass), the more partials you can get. The 11th, 13th, and even 15th become clearer and more practical, etc. Suddenly your "major triad" has 5 extra pitches!

While they get less stable the higher up the series you go, and some are "more out of tune" and possibly less useful for SOME composers, the fact of the matter is that they exist and, more importantly, are used by many composers in many works.

Even so, the fact that the 7th partial (which is outside of your "triad) can be produced on ALL strings of the violin is an indication that you are very misinformed regarding what your instrument can and can't do, since you maintain that the only possible harmonics are the first, third, and fifth partails (and obviously, their octaves).

Unfortunately, though, you're not the only musician I've talked to that isn't aware of your instrument's full potential and wide range of abilities.

I don't see in what Paul Zukofsty was revolutionary. He simpy added a valuable chart and stressed the problem of the minor third that doesn't exactly correspond to the resultant.

As previously mentionned the available intervals between fingers are

-Octave:only on higher position C-8-C=C(8) from the fundamental

-Fifth:more frequent C-5-G=G(12)

-Fourth the commonest:C-4-F=C(15)

-The Major third (difficult) C-3M-E=E(17)

-The minor third C-3m-Eb=G(19)

Is'nt that a triad ?

This pattern repeat on each chromatic scale degrees

Natural harmonics is similar to the above artificial harmonics the stopped note been replaced by open string. The difference is the minor third which is only available on the first(lower) position.

Resultant D B G D B G B D G B D

19 17 15 12 17 8 17 12 15 17 19

Note slightly touched Bb B C D E G B D G 17 D

3m 3M 4 5 6 8 10 12 15 17 1 9

Open string(fundamental G G G G G G G G G G G

Nothing new under the sun!

-The minor third C-3m-Eb=G(19)

Is'nt that a triad ?

The minor third is a lot harder to reach than the 7th. In fact, when you touch an Eb above a C, you are much more likely to get the 5th (a G) or if you make that touched Eb a bit flat a 7th (a somewhat flat Bb). Getting an Eb harmonic over a stopped C would usually be very hard and involve some double-node harmonics or so. (Since the minor third above the fundamental only appears very high up in the harmonic series.)

But instead of arguing the same things back and forth repeatedly, I suggest you do the following experiment: Take your violin and bow the empty G string continuously. Then touch the string with a finger at the end of the string and very slowly glide all over the string, as if you were doing a glissando. Listen to the different harmonics produced. You may want to slightly move around your bowing position while doing this as well, since that largely affects how well those higher harmonics respond. It would surprise me if you never got any F (i.e. the 7th) there…

The minor third is a lot harder to reach than the 7th. In fact, when you touch an Eb above a C, you are much more likely to get the 5th (a G) or if you make that touched Eb a bit flat a 7th (a somewhat flat Bb). Getting an Eb harmonic over a stopped C would usually be very hard and involve some double-node harmonics or so. (Since the minor third above the fundamental only appears very high up in the harmonic series.)

But instead of arguing the same things back and forth repeatedly, I suggest you do the following experiment: Take your violin and bow the empty G string continuously. Then touch the string with a finger at the end of the string and very slowly glide all over the string, as if you were doing a glissando. Listen to the different harmonics produced. You may want to slightly move around your bowing position while doing this as well, since that largely affects how well those higher harmonics respond. It would surprise me if you never got any F (i.e. the 7th) there…

Should I,by chance,play a F ,I really don't see how could use it in practice.Thinking it out I think you been lured by double harmonics which add a second combination a third ,fifth or sixth above the first combination and produce possibly a MAJOR seventh

Any way all those combinations are perilous and should preferably be writen for and with a specific performer because many harmonics depend upon the violin even top quality

Should I,by chance,play a F ,I really don't see how could use it in practice.

Its funny that you can't see how it could be used in practice, since it and has already been in use. For a while.

Thinking it out I think you been lured by double harmonics which add a second combination a third ,fifth or sixth above the first combination and produce possibly a MAJOR seventh

I think you don't know what you're talking about. Either that or something is getting lost in translation here.

Any way all those combinations are perilous and should preferably be writen for and with a specific performer because many harmonics depend upon the violin even top quality

Depending on the harmonic, its not that perilous, and I know I've always consulted a performer.

Its funny that you can't see how it could be used in practice, since it and has already been in use. For a while.

I think you don't know what you're talking about. Either that or something is getting lost in translation here.

Depending on the harmonic, its not that perilous, and I know I've always consulted a performer.

"Its funny that you can't see how it could be used in practice, since it and has already been in use". For a while.Could you

please give me an example!

"Depending on the harmonic, its not that perilous:"

you're obviously not a violonist

"Its funny that you can't see how it could be used in practice, since it and has already been in use". For a while.Could you

please give me an example!

"Depending on the harmonic, its not that perilous:"

you're obviously not a violonist

Well,it seems there is a very talkative silence!

New question: I want that F (7th overtone) on the G string; how do I notate that?

"Its funny that you can't see how it could be used in practice, since it and has already been in use". For a while.Could you

please give me an example!

"Depending on the harmonic, its not that perilous:"

you're obviously not a violonist

I appologize for the delay, as I did not see your response.

How about Horatiu Radulescu's "Das Andere", Op.49? Which opens with the 7th partial on the first string, and uses up until at least the 13th on the second.

Well,it seems there is a very talkative silence!

I simply didn't feel like digging through all my scores to show you examples. If you really insist I can still do that.

New question: I want that F (7th overtone) on the G string; how do I notate that?

Notate the sounding F with a circle above and a "sul G" or "IV" (in the case of the violin). If you want, you can also add a further "(7th partial)", especially if it's for orchestra.

At times it -can- also be useful to notate how it's played (with the touch position), but in that case I would always -also- indicate the sounding pitch.

Which exact notation I choose depends a bit on the context. The following two examples are from a piece of me. They are for cello and on the C-string instead of the G-string, but the principle is the same of course.

This first Bb is an ordinary 7th partial of the C-string, to be played however the performer sees fit.

In this second example we first have a fifth harmonic on the G-string, then a F# on the C-string is added to that and then released to a mere touch to produce a 7th partial on the C-string again. Here, the execution and not only the requested sound is notated in the case of the 7th partial harmonic, since it is a very specific finger/hand movement I imagine there.

Sorry for my delay to answer and many thanks for your examples .Here is the answer to our misunderstanding. Those are not natural harmonics(violonistically speaking) but artificial harmonics.In violin nomenclature Natural harmonics are those which the bass note is an open string.In your example there is an addition of a combination of two fingers so your examples are double harmonics which combine a natural harmonics to an artificial harmonics .

No, in both examples, they're natural harmonics. The Bb in the first example is played on an open C string. Likewise the Bb in the second example, just that at the same time a D (natural) harmonic on the G string is played. So there are just two natural harmonics played at the same time: one on the C string, one on the G string. I admit it may not be the optimal notation for this, but I didn't have much time and the cellist played it correctly in any case.

No, in both examples, they're natural harmonics. The Bb in the first example is played on an open C string. Likewise the Bb in the second example, just that at the same time a D (natural) harmonic on the G string is played. So there are just two natural harmonics played at the same time: one on the C string, one on the G string. I admit it may not be the optimal notation for this, but I didn't have much time and the cellist played it correctly in any case.

notation of F on G string is attached (fharm.pdf)

fharm.pdf

Yes, you had made it clear that you think those are the only possibilities (although in your second variant I would respell the F as a E#. It is a major third harmonic after all, not a diminished fourth harmonic).

All we're saying is that the natural harmonic on the G string (touch a natural seventh, or a somewhat small minor third, or something close to a tritone - but touching the natural seventh should probably be the most secure one) also exists.

Yes, you had made it clear that you think those are the only possibilities (although in your second variant I would respell the F as a E#. It is a major third harmonic after all, not a diminished fourth harmonic).

All we're saying is that the natural harmonic on the G string (touch a natural seventh, or a somewhat small minor third, or something close to a tritone - but touching the natural seventh should probably be the most secure one) also exists.

I forgot a pôssibility on G string F-F in octave that would yield the F of the first example .Touching natural seventh can't be secure since the sixth harmonics is already a problem.

I forgot a pôssibility on G string F-F in octave that would yield the F of the first example .Touching natural seventh can't be secure since the sixth harmonics is already a problem.

Like O.M.G.

Get your violin out. Try it. Stop saying you can't do things that are easily do-able.

Its an easily produced natural harmonic.

End. Of. Story.

Again, I have yet to meet a violinist who can't play the 7th harmonic.