Diatonic Scale

This is mostly a diatonic thread. Please, avoid too much chromaticism. It should at most occur as passing by this thread from and to some of the other threads.

Why do several composers write using the "diatonic" system? I would think the answer is pretty obvious - Aesthetic Choice. Obviously, if you have to ask, the aesthetic of "diatonicism" (or whatever it is you're actually talking about) may not be as appealing to you as it is to others. So, what's the reason for asking the question?

Why do several composers write using the "diatonic" system? I would think the answer is pretty obvious - Aesthetic Choice. Obviously, if you have to ask, the aesthetic of "diatonicism" (or whatever it is you're actually talking about) may not be as appealing to you as it is to others. So, what's the reason for asking the question?

I think the OP wanted to know why most music on here uses a functional tonal system, rather than simply the diatonic scale.

Okay, so beyond aesthetics, the only other blatantly obvious answer to me is how composers are educated with a theory curriculum, the majority of which tends to cover the tonal system and functional harmony. If the majority of a composer's theoretical knowledge in music is based on the very limited scope of Western tradition (given the vast array of music out in the world), there is much less to draw from in creating ideas, combining them, etc.

But this is not too significant for anyone to overcome these days. Once you understand music in at least one syntax, you can eventually understand music in another by studying scores and listening, reading books by authors who write about the music that interests you, and generally scouring the internet and bookstores in search of what you need. I, for one, wanted to know more about Wagner's language in Tristan. I bought the piano score to the Prelude and Liebstod and started analyzing the harmony (I own a DVD of the opera already). I'm now reading about Ottman's methods in composition, who has been influential to film music composers for a while now.

So, if it's not aesthetic choice, if instead it's the emphasis on tonal music in the theory curriculum, then it may just be that some of the composers here haven't felt capable or willing yet to venture beyond the theory curriculum and pursue the music they really want to write. Maybe these people don't listen to enough music to know what they want to write yet. Again, what's the point of asking??

Possibly because it can be constructed from a chain of 7 perfect fifths, or derived from the harmonic series.

Thats why the diatonic scale has developed in places in complete isolation of each other, like India and Europe, not to mention the countless major pentatonic scales used in ethnic music. (5 stacks of perfect fifths)

No, thats not the only reason, but all else I can think of has been said. (mostly asthetic choice)

Let me contribute to some thread-necromancing, but just to clear it up for people (specially the previous poster):

There's no "diatonic scale." Diatonic is a description of USE (adherence to a certain scale) and it's the opposite of Chromatic. That is, there's no "chromatic" or "diatonic" scale any more than there's a "forte" scale or a "legatto" scale.

If the discussion shifted towards talking about the lack of chromatism in music (ie more diatonic), then that's something else. It could be that the OP was talking about that and he just tripped up his terms.

By "the Diatonic scale", I mean the scale that results from taking seven pitches a perfect fifth apart and putting them into an octvave.

c, g, d, a, e, b, f#?

Erm...that would be A diatonic scale, the lydian scale. IME the major scale (another diatonic scale) is more popular.

The definition of "diatonic" is a scale built in consecutive seconds (note the etymology of the word: di-two, tonic-sound/pitch).

If the question is why Western harmony is based on the 12tet, equal temperment system...it's basically tradition. And it's what the general populace like hearing because of it.

Let me contribute to some thread-necromancing, but just to clear it up for people (specially the previous poster):

There's no "diatonic scale." Diatonic is a description of USE (adherence to a certain scale) and it's the opposite of Chromatic. That is, there's no "chromatic" or "diatonic" scale any more than there's a "forte" scale or a "legatto" scale.

If the discussion shifted towards talking about the lack of chromatism in music (ie more diatonic), then that's something else. It could be that the OP was talking about that and he just tripped up his terms.

The diatonic scale, as I define it, is the transpositions of the white keys of the piano, with a potential tonic at every pitch.

These terms may mean different things in different contexts. Very often, diatonic refers to musical elements derived from the modes and transpositions of the "white note scale" C–D–E–F–G–A–B (see details below).[3] In some usages it includes all forms of heptatonic scale that are in common use in Western music (the major, and all forms of the minor).[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_and_chromatic

Then just call it that. "Keys."

Seriously.

Then just call it that. "Keys."

Seriously.

Look, everything I've found so far supports my deffinition for diatonic, Where is the source for your definition?

http://www.answers.com/topic/diatonic

c, g, d, a, e, b, f#?

Erm...that would be A diatonic scale, the lydian scale. IME the major scale (another diatonic scale) is more popular.

The deffinition of diatonic dosen't imply a tonic, simply an interval structure.

Based on an octave divided into five tones (T) and two semitones (S), e.g.T-T-S-T-T-T-S. The major and natural minor scales are diatonic, as are the church modes.

(see link above)

The definition of "diatonic" is a scale built in consecutive seconds (note the etymology of the word: di-two, tonic-sound/pitch).

Wouldn't that make the chromatic scale a diatonic scale? It simply consists of consecutive minor seconds.

If the question is why Western harmony is based on the 12tet, equal temperment system...it's basically tradition. And it's what the general populace like hearing because of it.

Western harmony isn't based on 12 TET it is based on a number of various temperments with 12 tones, with 12 TET being the most recent monolith tuning system. But all of the diffrent 12 tone tunings are simliar in function. (it's just that some are horribly out of tune in certan keys!)

But anyway, twelve tones is the smallest number of equal divisions of the octave that approximates just intonation ratios with reasonable accuracy (but not exactly perfect, 19 is better, 31 is pretey good, 53 is great!)

Look, everything I've found so far supports my deffinition for diatonic, Where is the source for your definition?

http://www.answers.com/topic/diatonic

I'm on vacationa and so I don't have access to my books, but here's something for you to think about and it involves our friend Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale Page about "diatonic scale" in english wikipedia. Right?

But let's click the link to go to the German translation of this same page and we get...

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonik

Oh... But what is this? Where is the mention of any scale here? Oh except for the mention that it doesn't matter what the scales are like of course.

Just because the terminology may show up in english or be popular in english literature it doesn't necessarily mean it's accepted universaly and there are often good reasons for this. Like the ones I cited before.

But just in case, the bit in German which I'm sure I've cited before sums it well:

Wie die Tonleitern konstruiert sind, ist damit nicht bestimmt. Die Tonleitern können einerseits distanziell, harmonisch oder melodisch hergeleitet werden.

So yeah.

I'm on vacationa and so I don't have access to my books, but here's something for you to think about and it involves our friend Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale Page about "diatonic scale" in english wikipedia. Right?

But let's click the link to go to the German translation of this same page and we get...

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonik

Oh... But what is this? Where is the mention of any scale here? Oh except for the mention that it doesn't matter what the scales are like of course.

Just because the terminology may show up in english or be popular in english literature it doesn't necessarily mean it's accepted universaly and there are often good reasons for this. Like the ones I cited before.

But just in case, the bit in German which I'm sure I've cited before sums it well:

So yeah.

What use is the German meaning of the word? I'm using the well understood, english understanding of the word, let's not over complicate things! Language is a tricky thing...

Yes, it isn't universaly accepted, but is anything? It's universaly accepted in English. (although it can sometimes differ slightly by including all common western heptatonic scales as diatonic, like harmonic and melodic minor) If you beg to differ, get out a dictionary.

Edit: Also, Google Translate sucks at translating this German! :facepalm: It would be helpfull if I knew what "Tonvorrat" means...

Edit: Ok, so I did a little research... The italian deffinition of diatonic lines up with the english deffinition, and the spanish deffinition is exactly the same as Peter_W's deffinition. The Polish deffinition is also the same as the english.

Once again, definitions are confusing enough without crossing language barriers.

The deffinition of diatonic dosen't imply a tonic, simply an interval structure.

... [the definition is] universaly accepted in English. (although it can sometimes differ slightly by including all common western heptatonic scales as diatonic, like harmonic and melodic minor)

So...it's not universally accepted?

What is it? An interval structure, or a catch-all term for "anything derived from any of the seven modes of the major, or harmonic-minor, or melodic-minor, or harmonic-major or any other 7-toned-non-synthetic-western-scales" ... ???

ALso, I hardly accept the "definition" as being any set "interval structure" ... diatonic relates specifically to having a tonic ... any tonic. ...in a key... derived from a scale (any scale) ... Diatonic (as SSC pointed out) is simply a way of distinguising something with a tonal centre from something without.

So...it's not universally accepted?

What is it? An interval structure, or a catch-all term for "anything derived from any of the seven modes of the major, or harmonic-minor, or melodic-minor, or harmonic-major or any other 7-toned-non-synthetic-western-scales" ... ???

Just FYI. Harmnoic Major is a mode of harmonic Minor (accending of course)

And, I don't know, it depends on who you ask. :sleep:

ALso, I hardly accept the "definition" as being any set "interval structure" ... diatonic relates specifically to having a tonic ... any tonic. ...in a key... derived from a scale (any scale) ... Diatonic (as SSC pointed out) is simply a way of distinguising something with a tonal centre from something without.

I believe the term for that is tonal...

Just FYI. Harmnoic Major is a mode of harmonic Minor (accending of course)

Fair enough...

I believe the term for that is tonal...

I'll rephrase.

...it's simply a way of distinguising something as being distinctly not-chromatic...

Fair enough...

I'll rephrase.

...it's simply a way of distinguising something as being distinctly not-chromatic...

Ok, that makes more sense, but I still personally hold to my deffinition, which is backed up by sevreal online dictionarys and encyclopedias.

What use is the German meaning of the word? I'm using the well understood, english understanding of the word, let's not over complicate things! Language is a tricky thing...

Yes, it isn't universaly accepted, but is anything? It's universaly accepted in English. (although it can sometimes differ slightly by including all common western heptatonic scales as diatonic, like harmonic and melodic minor) If you beg to differ, get out a dictionary.

I'm not talking about dictionaries. I'm talking about just naming your keys just that, keys. If that's what the entire thing was about, then why not just say that?

And honestly I can't remember a single time where I read about a "diatonic scale" anywhere previous to seeing this thread since what matters is the (chromatic or diatonic) USAGE of any given scale in a piece of music, not the scale itself. Plus it's kind of contradictory since you could, say, use a "diatonic scale" chromatically. Then what? How the hell does that make any sense?

That nonsense can be avoided just by saying keys, like, say, C major. Or whatever. Everyone will know instantly what you're talking about if that's what it means.

But I also realize there's a "chromatic scale," which presumably you can also use diatonically... or can you? That's the problem with naming stuff this way. Wikipedia gives us this particular nugget nonsense:

A chromatic scale is a nondiatonic scale having no tonic due to the symmetry of its equally spaced tones.

Ugh.

Problem is also basing the entire thing on traditional concepts of major/minor tonality, since modes for example don't have a "tonic." Terminology like this should be set outside any particular tone organization systems, for good measure. Otherwise it makes the term redundant since, of course, if the only real defition of "diatonic scale" is a major or minor key then what's the point in having two terms for the same thing?

Honestly the terms diatonic and chromatic should never even show up unless we're talking about alterations (or lack thereof) in pieces within a specific context, everything else seems just clutter for no good reason regardless of how popular the term may be (...except in German.)

I believe the term could be used for both things and neither is wrong.

The term diatonic originally arises from the diatonic genus / diatonic tetrachord, from which the church modes evolve. Consequently, all the church modes are diatonic scale. Then, by analogy, it is extended beyond that and I personally prefer using it to describe whether or not the music makes departure from a certain scale (that is, not using notes outside the scale). On the other hand, if a piece of music often uses tone(s) apparently outside of a familiar scale pattern, but not the entire chromatic gamut, it could be viewed as using a synthetic or added-tones scale (something like the Bebop scale). I say 'often', because if the tone doesn't appear often enough with the others, it could hardly sound as a coherent whole with the scale.

Well, by Diatonic I really mean "white key music" but sorry if this terminology is incorrect. What is then the right name for the scale that results from a chain of 6 fifths?(please don't say major scale, since that also implies a certain modality).

Well, by Diatonic I really mean "white key music" but sorry if this terminology is incorrect. What is then the right name for the scale that results from a chain of 6 fifths?(please don't say major scale, since that also implies a certain modality).

A chain of 6 fifths: C G D A E B F#. When you put them all in the same octave, you get any number of scales and modes. How do you expect to discuss a particular scale/pitch-set without implying the respective modality?

Well, by Diatonic I really mean "white key music" but sorry if this terminology is incorrect. What is then the right name for the scale that results from a chain of 6 fifths?(please don't say major scale, since that also implies a certain modality).

Uh. You mean just regular keys right? Like C minor, A major, etc? I don't know what you mean with "white key music" if you don't mean regular keys. Give a musical example plz.

Are you meaning Ionian Mode? I don't want to keep throwing out terms, everyone's done that, but do you mean "Why do a lot of composers write in Ionian mode and stay there?" Are you questioning the lack of chromaticism in some people's writings? I think the reason for that is that it seems harder to use chromatism effectively when you've first started composing. It's much easier to write tonal music, or music in the 'Ionian' mode, and feel successful.

Is that what you're getting at?

The only reason modernists tend to shy away from diatonicism is because they're too afraid of not doing it as well as the millions of people who have come before them.

I lol'd.

And the only reason non-modernists use diatonicism is because they don't have any creativity(and/or are lazy) and thus repeat ad nauseum what others did?

I'm not digging the hostility.

As for this:

To answer the original question, the diatonic scale is used predominantly in music because it follows the natural properties of sound. A single tone consists not only of the fundamental tone, but also it's overtones. If you map out these overtones and reduce them to one octave, you will have a diatonic scale.

Ughhhhharrghh.

Map out which of the overtones, since there's a ton? Do you realize the intervals are different? Tuning? The oversimplification there makes my head hurt.

Beating the dead horse, there was an entire thread on this I had to LOCK because people don't understand accoustics nor tuning, but decide to state junk like this nonstop anyway.

And then this:

Are you meaning Ionian Mode?

W-what?

Oh jesus.

Anyway, I'm locking this thread since MOST of it is arguing about what the op tried to ask. If the OP wants to clear it up he can PM me and we'll see what can be done, but enough is enough for now.