Instrument Speeds, Note Shifting & Sheet Music Layout

Since I am venturing into orchestral writing, I have to understand the limitations of each orchestral instrument, especially when it comes to the speed at which an instrument can be played (assuming professionals are playing). I also have to understand how note shifting can affect the speed of instrument flow. For example, going from a low octave a to high octave a in a woodwind instrument probably is smoother than going from a low octave a to a high octave a in a string instrument. Can someone clear this up for me?

Another question I have is regarding the display of the woodwinds, brass instruments and string instruments on sheet music.

• Is it acceptable to have two chords in one staff? If yes, why?
  
• Is it acceptable to have three note chords in one staff? If yes, why?
  

I ask because I've seen some professional scores that have chords in these staves, but I can't figure out why this would be acceptable practice.

All of this stuff will be covered in the Orchestration masterclass. But to give you some specifics now:

Note shifting varies widely depending on the instrument. On the woodwinds its generally easy (flute is easy, bassoon not so easy, oboe easier than one would expect), on the strings is easy with some caveats, and moderately easy on the brass to hard depending on the range and particular shift. Unfortunately, unless we go into each individual instrument, there's no hard and fast rule because every instrument is different. So context is always helpful.

Display of the woodwinds and brasses are usually two parts to a staff of like instruments. So "chords" will inevitably come about. The use of three parts to a staff is discouraged unless the parts are very similar and simply don't need an extra staff. But that's a matter of taste. I'd prefer it all being split consistently. Sometimes the first part is written completely stems up and the second stems down. However, when there's a lengthy unison passage or lengthy rhythmic unison passage, this notation gets tiring to look at and sometimes even confusing. So its just easier to write it as intervals.

Speaking about woodwinds, the break point between octaves is what I would like to know before writing fast pasages within those notes. We all have seen pics of the instruments ranges, but I would like we to have on YC, some more specific ranges graphics, were one can find informations about those break point, which notes can or can not be obtained on ppp or fff, how loud is that instrument generally speaking, and all the additional helpful information we can tell.

I can make these graphics, I know the ranges of all instruments but I don't play them all, so I will need help from Flute, Oboe, Bassoon players.

Similar stuff can be made for Brass, Strings etc, the point is to deliver as much information as we can, about all instruments.

I made this pic fast, (using Sibelius symbols) but we/I can change whatever it needs to be changed, but this is more or less what I have in mind:

EDIT:

Aditional text information would be added of course

That is a nice idea SY, but your example isn't very accurate...C-D# is the nasty tuning area on the saxophone..D#-F#...in fact, saxophones like to tune to their F#.....

Since I am venturing into orchestral writing, I have to understand the limitations of each orchestral instrument, especially when it comes to the speed at which an instrument can be played (assuming professionals are playing). I also have to understand how note shifting can affect the speed of instrument flow. For example, going from a low octave a to high octave a in a woodwind instrument probably is smoother than going from a low octave a to a high octave a in a string instrument. Can someone clear this up for me?

This obviously varies greatly from instrument to instrument. Crossing from the "break point" which exists on most woodwinds is normally an area of concern..for example,(and perhaps the instrument this is most pertinent to) anything up to third line Bb on clarinet is the lower register while B and above is the upper register..passages that cross this path can be awkward if the composer is not familiar with these areas. A specific answer would require an in depth look at each instrument which we will provide masterclasses for in time but there are many resources regarding "crossing the break" on various instruments. When writing for the orchestra, it is important to note the register of the pitches---possible may not be "hearable." Flutes playing below the staff are not going to be heard in any type of medium loud or louder setting or thick orchestration even at soft volumes.

Another question I have is regarding the display of the woodwinds, brass instruments and string instruments on sheet music.

• Is it acceptable to have two chords in one staff? If yes, why?
  Two chords? or two notes??? Im not sure what you are asking...do you mean like in a clarinet part where two or three notes are written? This should be accompanied with the marking a2 or two players unless the composer intends it to be played as multiphonics which should also be marked...some older music may be lacking this marking simply because it is understood that two players should play, splitting the parts. Is this what you mean?
  
• Is it acceptable to have three note chords in one staff? If yes, why?
  

I ask because I've seen some professional scores that have chords in these staves, but I can't figure out why this would be acceptable practice.

Really, advanced string players should be able to play any interval, but otherwise, shifting octaves on strings really depends on which octave you're playing. For the most part, any octave where the bottom is an open string (on the lower three strings) to one whole step above the open strings isn't any problem, because the octave is either the third or fourth (ring/pinky) finger on the next highest string. Other notes you'd have to either shift or cross three strings, but even that isn't terribly difficult.

As for wind instruments, I think the break on most wind instruments is between C and D, written in the middle of the staff.

On brass instruments, octaves are probably the hardest, especially the horn, because the intervals are so close. But they shouldn't be much of a problem for advanced players.

Hope I was helpful.

-MF

As a brass (trumpet) player. I could help answer any particular questions about brass instruments that you may have, though I will no doubt have holes in my knowledge...

In general though, assuming you're dealing with professional musicians, intervals aren't a huge problem for any brass instrument provided they are not being played too quickly. For example, the octave interval scale patter in the second half of the final movement of the Haydn Trumpet Concerto, is an example of how fast, in general, brass players can play their intervals (about eighth notes at mm = 120). Most players could probably go faster than that, but that is a safe, conservative estimate.

The only exception is horn, where the intervals cannot be played as quickly as on other brass instruments (my conservative estimate would be more like quarter notes at mm = 120).

Apart from that, the only thing to take into special consideration is the idea of "lip slurs" or "lip trills". It is much more difficult for brass players to smoothly move from multiple notes with the same fingering/slide position. Slurring these notes is a fairly standard thing and all players can do that, but trilling them is much more difficult. Quite possible, but difficult.

That problem is most likely to occur in the upper registers of tuba/euph/trumpet, most of the horn, and all of the trombone range (since a trombone cannot trill using the slide).

In general, brass can be loud in pretty much any place in their register, except in the extremes of the registers.

@benxiwf

I don't play Alto, but in Soprano and Tenor, in both I can play well up to D in the first octave (I just forgot to say is with altern fingering using the C+D# keys for that D) but I tried to say those C, C#, D notes can be played well on both octaves, for higher that D I think all players switch to 2nd octave for that, maybe that D# needs the "bad tuning" arrow too.

Anyway, we would tune up all these datails, the point is to have it.

well...what you called "nasty" isn't really nasty on any saxophone.

Since this has come up, here is the breakdown on saxes:(in written pitch)

All saxophones use Bb below the staff as the lowest pitch except some baritone and lower saxes which normally include a low A key as well.

While traditionally there were a set of C and F saxes along with the Bb and Eb saxes, the C and F saxes eventually phased out to leave the four most common being:

Eb Baritone

Bb Tenor

Eb Alto

Bb Soprano

Adding to either side of the spectrum are the lesson common Bb Bass and Eb Sopranino saxophones.

Range Breakdown:

Bb (below staff) - C# (below staff): very full sound, difficult to play. The fingerings for these notes are all a little bit awkward and moving quickly between these notes can be difficult for amateur players.

D (below staff) - C# (3rd space): stable, strong range, easy to play rapidly. These fingering are easy to move between.

C#-D is the break on the saxophone..however, it is not awkward or difficult to cross even for a beginner. However, since C# closes no holes on the saxophone and D closes almost all, these two notes are among the most difficult to tune on the saxophone.

D (fourth line) - C# (above staff): Also stable. and the fingerings in this range are exactly the same as the octave below with the addition of the octave key..this means that switching between octaves is virtually effortless and why the saxophone is so flexible. The fingering system is easily the best of any woodwind instrument.

D (above staff) - F(#) (above sax) - Use "palm keys" or "fork F key." They are slightly awkward when transitioning from notes below the D so rapid movement in and out of this range is not recommended. Older saxes don't include high F# keys but newer ones almost always do.

G (2nd G above staff) - ?? : This is where the level of the player is very important. The range could be only a note or two more or extend up another octave or even two depending on the player. The fingerings require the ability to play overtones and normally quite awkward fingerings.

Hope this is helpful.

I should have written the speed of that staff, I was thinking in something very fast. The "nasty" bar is something I would not recommend to a composer doesn't play sax.

But instead keep tuning this sax graphic I'd like to know the info for the others, Flutes, Oboes, Bassson, (I do clarinet) and an idea on how would we do this for brass, perhaps small ranges indicating the overtones ?

Two and three note chords are acceptable to write on a staff. For instance: if you have a section of 3 oboists, and there is a 3-note chord in their part, each oboist will take one of the individual notes. Which oboist gets which note is usually decided by the oboist's seat in the orchestra. A first-chair oboist will get the highest note, a second-chair will get the middle note, and the third-chair will get the low note. That's how I understand it, anyway. It doesn't mean that each oboist plays all three notes at once.

Unless you explicitly ask for a multiphonic :happy: