YC Design Prototype

That's the idea, though I'm convinced you could easily put both of those on one page. And have room to spare.

Hmm interesting. It takes James to come and save the day apparently.

I'll let this develop for a few more hours and see what y'all come up with then.

I think the current problem we have and this is not breaking news is that not enough members are commenting in these threads. To date only 21 people have voted on this thread - YC's staff is 40 and we know that not all 21 voters are staff so the lack of responses is uniform. I would think that the staff at least would want, if not required, to vote on the improvements to the site they have the job of being big brother over.

Maybe those that are commenting on these threads could discuss ways of getting the rest to follow suit - even if its just voting.

I see the concern but I'm not sure what good would come out of it at this point. The votes clearly swing to the negative in every category by about 1:2. The small community who cares has spoken.

I see the concern but I'm not sure what good would come out of it at this point. The votes clearly swing to the negative in every category by about 1:2. The small community who cares has spoken.

I just don't want Chopin to waste his money - I agree that the community that cares have voted but 21 people might not be a good cross section of the YC community. I just don't want to tempt fate that we get the site we want and like but everyone else hates it. I'd rather us been a majority with a larger section of the community.

I think the reason people aren't voting/commenting is because this is all so disorganised. One thread, then another, then in the first thread we talk about the issues in a third one and... it's just a mess. "Here's sketches." "Here's a prototype." "Let's adopt this instead and scratch this" ... it all need to be a bit more linear for the average member to be able to take it all in. If anybody else knows a way to make these brainstorming threads clearer, that'd be lovely.

A wiki? Regulations? Moderators or sumpthin?

Idk.

Maybe more participation with the guy who wants to change things.

My first thought would be an index thread where any "current" discussion issues/topics relating to forthcoming changes are listed and linked and where current status/decisions on each issue is summarized, along with some strict enforcement for on-topic discussion in each thread. As far as notifying updates to the index thread, interested people can watch that thread and the admin can add a post whenever a new issue/topic is added.

Global announcements also work to bring attention to new issues/threads. A bit like the "Attention" box above, except make the intent a bit clearer. e.g., "We're working on a new site design! Check out the current [link]design prototype[/link]; we'd love to know your opinion."

Clearly mark topics in the Announcements and Technical Problems (e.g. using tags in square brackets) that indicate current and deprecated topics relating to forthcoming changes (heck, it might be good to categorize all official/announcement threads in this forum for ease of browsing: [News], [staff], [update] or [New], [issue] or [Downtime] for known unresolved problem annoucements, etc.).

I.. don't know what's wrong with the current stuff. Sure it needs some polishing, but why redesign EVERYTHING AGAIN?

Seriously guys, is this really necessary? REALLY?

REALLY????

Again - only the layout. All the code for the elements are already written, we just need to arrange pages more intuitively and people don't seem to like the aesthetic, so we're going for another.

You guys lost me at page 4, got me back at the end of page 5... Although I've been here just a few weeks (2? 3?) I wanted to say something as well. I think the new design chopin showed isn't looking as good as the current site does, but thats just my (humble) opinion. True, there are some little flaws at times, but I dont feel the whole site has to be build up from scratch again.

I really like the top bars of this current site (that's up to the 'Home*Forums*Members' and the 'about YC' or the 'my music/profile' bars) - and that is not just because my own picture is up there in the right corner (ok, it actually is).

Below that it gets a bit more puzzely (is that a word). I feel the power of sites like youtube/google/twitter etc is their simplicity. Big pictures, not too much text, easy colouring schemes... Maybe that's what this site needs, although it already kinda has (mind - kinda).

I think the site should keep its light-coloured design though, because it is much more convenient to watch dark letters/pages on a light background than the other way around (and it looks more modern whatever that may be). I personally would like some list or notification system with threads I have commented on, so I can check or get notified if someone else comments/replies on that thread (may it be compositional or other ones like this one).

Or am I ill-informed and does it already exist? If so, roy out

PS I'm a Calibri-guy since Word decided to make it its default font

I just don't want Chopin to waste his money - I agree that the community that cares have voted but 21 people might not be a good cross section of the YC community. I just don't want to tempt fate that we get the site we want and like but everyone else hates it. I'd rather us been a majority with a larger section of the community.

My prototype will not be utilized due to the popular vote. I will however come up with a better looking design prototype that will clean up this site and provide for a more logical navigation and better user experience. As far as wasting money, I don't see it like that, and that is where you and I differ. I see all of this as risk taken by me in hopes to create a better user experience for the community. I think very strongly that we can turn all this negativity around to a general positive stance with the correct updates and design. Maybe the naysayers don't believe, but I do, which is a good thing for the community because I have the community's back (even during bad times), and I am willing to fund this site, and invest in new features for this very reason. So when you ask the question....

.. don't know what's wrong with the current stuff. Sure it needs some polishing, but why redesign EVERYTHING AGAIN?

Seriously guys, is this really necessary? REALLY?

REALLY????

This is why I've decided to invest in redesigning the site and layout. For the very reason that I believe in this community, and I think we can move forward very strongly if what we have now is "properly" laid out logically, and aesthetically. I believe in this community because it's been around since 1997, and its always had its ups and downs, and I know there are many people in my situation (wanting to express their musical side, but not knowing where to go). I am not willing to let go so easily for this reason. Are you?

I think the site should keep its light-coloured design though, because it is much more convenient to watch dark letters/pages on a light background than the other way around (and it looks more modern whatever that may be). I personally would like some list or notification system with threads I have commented on, so I can check or get notified if someone else comments/replies on that thread (may it be compositional or other ones like this one).

Well we won't have light text on dark backgrounds, if you notice in my prototype, we have a very light background against the dark text. We might lighten up the skin, readability is of course important. We have a "watch" system, which in my opinion, is not very good at notifying the member "on-site" about new threads. YC will email you if you choose to opt for that method every time someone replies to the watched thread. However we currently don't have a notifications system that is sophisticated, but we are working on one. I've seen and tested progress already, and the system being built for us is already quite amazing.

As far as wasting money, I don't see it like that, and that is where you and I differ.

I don't see updating the site as a waste of money. I think you have misunderstood me. If its done right then it will be good. My concern is that as a very limited number of the members on here have responded, we would get into the position where after the new site is active, people who did not vote will become vocal that they hate it etc. It would be a rather :facepalm: situation and a waste of your time and money.

My ideal musical site would be a site where I can upload my music - where it is likely to be listened to, talk to other composers about my music so I can improve and possibly find out about opportunities like call for scores. On the first and third point, I currently go elsewhere. I am not saying if you improve the site that I won't go elsewhere (for various reasons) but part of the reason, I have been vocal on these threads is because I know this site has the potential to expand to cover aspects composers are interested in but most of the discussion has been about facebook-like add ons.

I won't cover old ground again but ideas such as a site wide feed might be useful "in-house" but from my understanding would be useless for getting my music out on a global scale or helping me career-wise. If I was a new member of the site, without awareness of the community as a whole, I probably would not stay around long. However, if the site really was a site for "Young Composers" and that all aspects of the compositional world were covered then as a site, we would attract a large audience and things like a site wide feed would be bonus. For example, the website Composition Today while aimed at a more professional audience does a much better job of showcasing their composers and providing opportunities than we do. If I was considering both sites, as a newbie, more inclined to join them (even though the look is dated) for that reason.

Having seen what you are looking at design wise, can I ask what your plans are with the coming updates in relation to some of these aspects?

EDIT: Just a small thing, I want to emphasis I am here because of the community foremost. I just think YC has potenial and I am thinking about other people's needs as well as my own.

My ideal musical site would be a site where I can upload my music - where it is likely to be listened to, talk to other composers about my music so I can improve and possibly find out about opportunities like call for scores.

I want you to know, this would be my ideal site too :) I have not lost sight about the end goal.

but most of the discussion has been about facebook-like add ons.

Part of the reason for discussion about "facebook like" attributes is because I believe these attributes will increase visibility to the forum. I just got done browsing through the updates my hired help has finished for this week (yes they are starting to do things alot quicker now that we have the architecture in place), and I'm impressed. Many of my ideas come from asking myself the question "how could I as a composer benefit?". I can see myself using this feed system because it brings instant awareness as to new compositions from friends being uploaded, new threads being started, etc. The ability to "watch" a thread and have it be displayed on your profile (where you can comment directly on the profile) I believe is a better system than our current "watch" function. As it's laid out now, the user has the ability to navigate through all the threads directly within the profile, if he chooses to do so. I may even consider a "pinning" system, where the user chooses to pin certain feed events towards the top, and not have "time" push other events down. Again, alot of my ideas come from myself asking the question "how can I as a composer on this site, benefit?"

I won't cover old ground again but ideas such as a site wide feed might be useful "in-house" but from my understanding would be useless for getting my music out on a global scale or helping me career-wise.

I understand this completely, but I really must think of ways to improve the user experience here, in order to grow this website. The only way this site can be useful in the way we both imagine is if we gain publicity. The only way to gain publicity, is by heavy advertising, and a "spoken about" website. I believe this can possibly be achieved if I take the right steps to produce a very nice looking site, along with a great user experience.

However, if the site really was a site for "Young Composers" and that all aspects of the compositional world were covered then as a site, we would attract a large audience and things like a site wide feed would be bonus. For example, the website Composition Today while aimed at a more professional audience does a much better job of showcasing their composers and providing opportunities than we do. If I was considering both sites, as a newbie, more inclined to join them (even though the look is dated) for that reason.

I believe our traffic is stagnant because of a few things. One, being lack of advertising, two being the very poor design and layout we currently sport (yes I admit this), and three, because a forum isn't enough to achieve the main goal I believe. Visibility of compositions is the ultimate goal (which cannot be handled by just the forum alone), but in order for us composers to become recognized, we have to start attracting students and teachers from music schools, and hobbyists from all over the world. This will happen if we advertise and develop an awesome looking, simple to navigate, and highly functional website that addresses your needs, and mine. As far as the website "Composition Today" can you tell me how they do a better job at showcasing compositions? Building systems from now on will not be hard at all, and we are set up to add functionality without a problem moving forward. But let me give you an example of how I feel compositions are visible, or will be:

1. The feed system.

2. The forums itself.

3. The directory and search: this is a great system and all works are showcased here by interest level. Of course the formatting of this directory is rudimentary at best, and I am aware of this. Thus, I believe one reason for our lower traffic levels can be blamed on the poor design of the network parts of this site, and lack of "visual" integration between systems.

4. The browse: again, I realize the results are rudimentary and at a very basic looking level.

This is the price to pay when things are done from scratch. However on the plus side, there may be more functionality on this site that you (and many others) are just not seeing. You may however be missing it (and I can understand why), because of the very basic design. But if you really looked into the features, you will see how neat this system could be, especially if it looked more upscale. Thus, the reason why I realize we are due for a layout and design re-vamp.

Having seen what you are looking at design wise, can I ask what your plans are with the coming updates in relation to some of these aspects?

My plans are to open this site up to become more "viral" by creating a more aesthetic design, and highly functional website that will address and facilitate the needs of the community. I am also trying to get more people to contribute to discussion here because if everyone comes to YC with the mentality of just "uploading" works to receive comments on their music without contributing, we will never get past a cycle of "people come, people go", and our goal will definitely never be achieved this way. For example, we will always maintain the same amount of visits and traffic to this site, killing the chances of YC ever becoming viral.

As far as the website "Composition Today" can you tell me how they do a better job at showcasing compositions

Well for starters they have a whole section for their composers. Not only does this section have profiles (such as our wiki style ones but more extensive) but composers concerts are advertised on that section. The page also rotates the composers that are featured on the front page at random.

I have already suggested that because we are forum that we tab the profile section. It is only now I've fully looked around that site that the idea I suggested with is sort of there on their site. Each composer has their own mini page in the Showcase section such as Chris Brammeld's. How I would adapt such profiles for YC is having our profiles be able to do this. The reason being - I talk a lot on the Shoutbox. If someone views my profile because of this - then they are not only finding when I was last online but they get an idea of who I am and the type of music I write. In house this is great for the community, but if each member has their own sort of mini-music website then if they are not at the stage where they need/want a website - then YC becomes a good tool for them.

(PS Thanks for giving me an essay to read! :happy: !)

1. The feed system.

2. The forums itself.

3. The directory and search: this is a great system and all works are showcased here by interest level. Of course the formatting of this directory is rudimentary at best, and I am aware of this. Thus, I believe one reason for our lower traffic levels can be blamed on the poor design of the network parts of this site, and lack of "visual" integration between systems.

4. The browse: again, I realize the results are rudimentary and at a very basic looking level.

My plans are to open this site up to become more "viral" by creating a more aesthetic design, and highly functional website that will address and facilitate the needs of the community. I am also trying to get more people to contribute to discussion here because if everyone comes to YC with the mentality of just "uploading" works to receive comments on their music without contributing, we will never get past a cycle of "people come, people go", and our goal will definitely never be achieved this way. For example, we will always maintain the same amount of visits and traffic to this site, killing the chances of YC ever becoming viral

Aren't items three and four the same thing? Or isn't one an "advanced search"? The directory is where you browse works. Unless you consider "browse" to be the composer search, in which case it needs a new name. In my sketches it looked possible to combine both of these pages into one, it might be worth considering in order to continue simplifying the site.

Also, don't get too involved with being "viral" and maintaining the same members - we just need to concentrate on serving the members that are interested. The ones that aren't interested or lose interest are just that and we shouldn't worry too much about trying to lasso them in.

The browse function is very different from the directory. I think the browse feature will look much more like a browse once it is formatted. My goal was to have a place where people can search for other composers by inputting criteria. I still wouldn't call it a search, because keywords aren't exactly being typed in, in order to find composers. Essentially, you are "browsing" by selecting criteria. The person browsing, doesn't necessarily know exactly which person he wants to find, he wants to find "someone" who fits a certain criteria.

Also, don't get too involved with being "viral" and maintaining the same members - we just need to concentrate on serving the members that are interested. The ones that aren't interested or lose interest are just that and we shouldn't worry too much about trying to lasso them in.

It's all about serving the community, I know this. It's just that changes make people uncomfortable, this is human nature. But if the goal is to create a medium for composers to showcase their works to get recognized, or find opportunities, changes must be made. And since changes make people uncomfortable, it's natural that I am receiving some friction here. I had the same problem in 2005 when a change of ownership took place. But look at where we are today, compared to pre 2005. We have many new faces, an automated system that categorizes works now, a much more active community, and more potential. In fact, many of you here now who are voicing your concerns would not be able to DO so, if it weren't for those first sets of changes in 2005 in which I had been criticized so greatly of. So were those changes in 2005 really all that bad, if those changes back then led to you discovering this place? Those changes were also the gateway into what is taking place today. The only reason I couldn't transform the website back then was because I did not have the salary I have today.

And I just want to make a point that although we may be hurting slightly, it's really not terrible at all. We still have a very focused community that serves its purpose. There are of course other factors into a slower community than that past. For example, a more mature audience, economy, old member-base grudges, more focused community (leading to fewer topics, but more on topic), and much of the old staff leaving. The main problem we suffer from today is a slight community disconnect.

One thing that bothers me about the site as it is now is the way everything is so complicated. To do some sort of simple action like changing an avatar or something a user has to jump through tons of hoops, go through four different pages, click the right tab, and go through this complicated maze in order to do some simple action. The user CP (I maybe use this term kind of generally) is like a giant jungle of profiles, options, and the like. I think we should make sure that everything is well laid-out and visible; think "What's the shortest route to take to get to this task/option/whatever" and that will make everything a lot more simple and easier to use, and therefore, more successful. When redesigning the site, I think you/we/the designers/whoever should focus on your question "how can I as a composer benefit" but also "how can I make this feature easily accessible - what's the shortest and easiest way to get there?"

I hope you understand what I mean...

-MF

MusicFiend: It looks like the settings/options screens are IPB's, not custom-designed. Unfortunately, it seems most of the major forum software uses this multi-page categorized system (vB, IPB and PHPBB3 do, at least).

Indeed MF. How do we make this site as "bloat free" as possible. This is a common problem with "bloatware" or software that is insanely bloated in size and number of features that don't really work that well. YC certainly falls into that category. It has all these funny places to change things and tons of features and they aren't really necessary. This site should do five things perfectly, not 50 things in a mediocre fashion.

YC needs a major UI upgrade, not just "skins" or "CSS" or "layout and colors" etc. It needs a fundamental reworking in regard to UI. Can that be done with the current architecture? Most likely (though it may take some time), and I'd encourage Chopin and Co. to seriously consider UI before "looks." Since we all know what killed Vista. It was not the fancy Aero translucent windows: it was the crappy UI and "bloatiness" of the software (along with not listening to what consumers wanted among other sundry things). Windows 7 was a success because Msft considered the community and built an OS that was amazing and useful not just on an eye candy level, but a basic functional one too. YC should follow this example.

Attached is the new proposed design. Please evaluate.

Attached is the new proposed design. Please evaluate.

again with the browns! No bueno senor! and what's with that random bar at the end? Last time i checked, my TV was working!

WOW, that's a big difference. Not entirely sure I like it yet, it's still really busy looking. BUT, the aesthetic is getting better. Also, too many colours. (MichaelAlex, that bar is the colour palette used in the design for easy visualisation). I think just stick to two as much as possible. Brown and red I find to be quite pleasing, but that's subjective. (blue is quite for the links/text of course, I like that shade) Also, in generally I find the browns a little bit too yellow.

I also find the main nav to be a bit on the tall side (by about 4 to 8 px) and it just generally looks ugly. You could compress it and donate the saved space to the banner. I like the dropdown menu for the search, it's very clear and I also like the UI in the upper right corner (except I can't tell what the icons mean just by looking at them, I'd have to have a mouseover tip). I assume this mockup eliminates displaying profile picture in a box like the live site does now?

What's the blue share button for? There's already a Submit/input button.

I like the info pane, but I can't help but think the pictures are unnecessary. They're nice... but I don't see the point in them, they bloat the page visually.

Last note - banner needs a graphic of some sort, at least, but I'm sure you know that.

and what's with that random bar at the end? Last time i checked, my TV was working!

...that's called a palette. It's how one decides on and consistently references the colours to use in graphics design. <_<

chopin: I like this much better than the original prototype. It still doesn't feel nicer than the current design, though (that is to say, the parts of the current design that are well polished). However, it's certainly quite reminiscent of Facebook's news feed layout - take that as you will.

This design feels less cramped than the previous. I might be tempted to add a little more spacing for the compositions listing - something quite subtle, like 1 to 2pt top and bottom. I might also add a greater margin above the left-hand column titles. I'm not sure if playing around with margins would help it feel less busy.

I'm not sure the green headings really fit. As far as colour coordination goes, it's not a sense that I've honed well, but it seems a bit odd to my eye. Otherwise, those headings have an nicely subtle effect in the design, despite being solid-colour; a further graphical effect is also an option, perhaps something to play around with if you haven't.

Contrary to James, I think the navigation bar fits well height-wise. I certainly agree that the header should have some graphical content - or maybe a nice, well-designed logo? I also disagree with him as far as the shades used go - considering the oppositely bad colour calibration of my two monitors, I'm tempted to say the lighter shades of brown are perfect. The dark background shade still feels like it could be warmer.

I have one major issue with the layout, though: the font for the title (among anything else? Not sure). Having seen its use in a better layout now, it makes the site feel much too juvenile. You don't need to seem "fun" to target a "young" audience - "young" would mean teenagers and young adults, not children, and an excessively kiddy website might, on the contrary, cause people to dismiss the website as childish or not serious enough. There are many fonts that exist which aren't quite so excessively stylistic, but which still retain a feeling of freedom or informality. In other words: subtlety. It's amazing the difference Verdana vs. Tahoma vs. Candara makes (for example), or even changing the kerning a little.

Something else I'd like to comment on, as a matter much more of personal opinion: I would not indent the post contents under the "created a new thread" title, but keep that box aligned to the title's. I'd use the indentation for the replies only, and the arrow at the first reply.

I have one major issue with the layout, though: the font for the title (among anything else? Not sure). Having seen its use in a better layout now, it makes the site feel much too juvenile. You don't need to seem "fun" to target a "young" audience - "young" would mean teenagers and young adults, not children, and an excessively kiddy website might, on the contrary, cause people to dismiss the website as childish or not serious enough. There are many fonts that exist which aren't quite so excessively stylistic, but which still retain a feeling of freedom or informality. In other words: subtlety. It's amazing the difference Verdana vs. Tahoma vs. Candara makes (for example), or even changing the kerning a little.

I disagree. Not saying that a more "serious" font won't hurt, I'd prefer it actually. However, the new font doesn't bother me, and alot of the other members seem to like it. I certainly don't think the font will turn users away. I think the quality of the website and music is what will attract/reject people. I don't think anyone would leave because of font.

(or colors, it's just a personal thing that I don't like.)