How do you use a 13 semitones scale?

I've heard of a 13 semitones scale, and I'd like to experiment with one, but... how does it work? I don't know where to start. Could anyone give me any information?

First I would recommend to forget the idea of that scale, I made a piece in it and sounds ugly:

Horizontes

(listen tracks 3-6)

No instrument can play that scale in "normal fashion", I had to create all notes of the scale one by one (in Adobe Audition) specifying the frequencies, then create different timbres then compose the piece in FL Studio putting the sounds one by one, a lot of work for .... for that, just listen to it ....

If you're still interesnted I can give you the frequenices for the 13 semitones scale.

By the way, this scale was initialy experimented by a Mexican composer "Julian Carrillo" in his late days, you know, all composers start making weird stuff when they're old

hehe, I think if you don't make weird stuff, you're missing out on a lot of fun :)

I am listening to all of the ones you mentioned... and I will let you know what I think here.

The first, Langsam, was not so good in my opinion. Like you said, I think it sounds pretty ugly.

The second, Fuga, was much better when the distorted bass comes in.

The third, Calmato, was my favorite. To me it sounds beautiful, although a few notes are a bit grating.

As far as I can tell, there is no track six. Maybe I don't know how to navigate the website...

I think this scale is well suited for ambiance, with more focus on percussion than intricate melodies. The more intricate the melody is, the more violent and unnatural it sounds.

Unfortunately I don't have the software to use this. Perhaps I will learn other things first. I don't want to trouble you by asking for the frequencies when I probably won't use them for many years. At the moment I'm trying to use the Lydian Dominant mode, and I'm having enough trouble with that ^^;

There's no track 6, my mistake is only 3,4,5 ... I may re-post that work in the current YC and we could discuss the "future" of this scale, but I think is too close to the common 12, maybe others like 15 I don't know....

If I have time, I'll try to re-use the original flp file and maybe compose a second work in this 13 thing.

Consonance, tuning and timbre are related. This is one of the reasons why 13-TET sounds 'ugly' to you. When the timbre matches the scale in the best possible way (that is, there is as much overall coincidence of the overtones in the spectrum as possible), it would sound more consonant and 'prettier'. In 13-TET this isn't the case. The size of the steps between the tones is approx. 92 cents as opposed to 100 cents in 12-TET. For example, the perfect fifth in 12-TET is 700 cents, which is only 2 cents less than the just fifth. But in 13-TET you are farther from it - the closest intervals are 644 cents (between the ET tritone and the ET 5th, as well as close to the 16/11 just interval) and 736 cents - both are like narrow and wide mistuned fifths. The thirds are not in a 'favorable' position, either. It could work more pleasantly harmonically if you change the timbre and make it more inharmonic in order to match the scale. The easiest way to do this is the electronic way - with synthesizers. Provided this is done, at the beginning it would probably sound weird to you until your ears eventually adjust.

Anyway, if you want to 'tune' 13-TET with the computer, you might take 440Hz and then use the 13th root of 2 (1.0547660764816466736791909578267) to get the remaining tones.

This is the info I saved from that time I made that piece "Horizontes"

EDIT:

this is the old thread link

Sonido 13.doc

Thanks, I have the frequency document saved on my computer now.

If you experiment with 14, 15 or smaller semitones, post the work here and let me know, perhaps 15 or 16 delivers more interesting sounds

Why insist on equal octave divisions though? Not that there's anything fundamentally wrong with it, but personally I often find scales consisting of unequal intervals more interesting: They offer a lot more different intervals, without requiring more notes. A 13-TET scale only has 13 different intervals within one octave. An unevenly proportioned scale out of merely 6 notes however could already contain 20 unique intervals per octave. Of course, just having lots of different intervals may be not what you're looking for. Sometimes it -is- much more appreciated if you have fewer intervals, but have them available on many different pitches, in which case equal divisions (but not necessarily octave divisions) are an obvious choice.

One may also consider breaking away from octave identity in the first place. This can be troublesome with traditional instruments, but not so for electronic instruments. (In my electronic pieces I almost never work with octave identity, but for instance with scales that get more narrow around certain central tones, or more narrow on top, or whatever.)

I've heard of a 13 semitones scale, and I'd like to experiment with one, but... how does it work? I don't know where to start. Could anyone give me any information?

To the question that is the topic:

You dissect it, analyze it, know it inside in out, play around with it for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks before you even think about writing the piece, and understand how it works.

Then you start to write.

You have thirteen equal divisions of the octave. So divide 1200 by 13 and BAM = your "semitone" is 92.31 cents.

So C = 0, "D-flat" = 92.31, "D" = 184.62, "E-flat" = 276.92, "E" = 369.23, "E-sharp" = 461.54, "F" = 553.85, "F-sharp" = 646.15, "G" = 738.46, "G-sharp" = 830.77, "A" = 923.08, "A-sharp" = 1015.38, "B" = 1107.69. Of course, that's not how I would actually spell the pitches.

But yeah, the only way to know how it works, what to do with it, etc. is to play around with it.

If you need more help understanding and getting into microtonal music, PM me. I'd be happy to help.

First I would recommend to forget the idea of that scale, I made a piece in it and sounds ugly:

No instrument can play that scale in "normal fashion", I had to create all notes of the scale one by one (in Adobe Audition) specifying the frequencies, then create different timbres then compose the piece in FL Studio putting the sounds one by one, a lot of work for .... for that, just listen to it ....

By the way, this scale was initialy experimented by a Mexican composer "Julian Carrillo" in his late days, you know, all composers start making weird stuff when they're old

All of that is wrong -- execept for the fact that you wrote a piece using that system that may or may not sound "ugly".

Carrillio's "Thirteenth Sound" is multiple divisions of the whole-tone -- third-, quarter-, fifth-, sixth-, seventh-, eighth-, nineth-, tenth-, eleventh-, twelvth-, etc. (if I'm not mistaken, he seemed to favor dividing the whole-tone into sixteen parts, so sixteenth-tones, or 96tET, yup, 96 divisions of the octave, not 13). It's called the "Thirteenth Sound" because it goes outside of 12 divisions of the octave. Its not 13tET.

It's true, Carrillo tested several scales, not only 13.

My recommendation or forgeting the idea was probably wrong, but it is obvious that the "ugly" thing is based on my personal taste, besides I said that because I think is too much work for nothing.

The thing about instruments is not wrong, is true, no instrument can play a 13+ scale in "normal fashion", probably bowed strings but would requiere a highly developed ear, much more that usual, woodwinds, totally difficult, honestly I find it pointless to get into that mess for that kind of music, I very much prefer the 12, I believe there's still a lot of things to do.

I didn't know about Carrillo liked the 16 more, like I said, it can be more interesting with 14,15,16 etc, and I am interested on listening to it.

Once I listened a Carrillo String Quartet, I don't know exatly what scale he used, but the sound was really freaking cool, probably they were just half shaprs/flats, or "normal" playing with altern tuning .... who knows, those recordings are difficult to get, anyone have them ?

This is a bit tangential to your topic but related. Woodwinds can produce wonderful microtones either as a single or far more interesting as multiphonics. Flute produces multiphonics most easily but clarinet and oboe can. Only warning is you need to work with the player.

If you like an example of multiphonics on the clarinet you can check out this piece I wrote in close collaboration with a clarinetist 2 years ago: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=889445

Go to Intro and Variation 1

Carrillio only used tunings based on the division of the whole step. No equal-temperaments outside of those based on the whole tone scale (18tET, 24tET, 30tET, 36tET, 42tET, 48tET, 54tET, 60tET, 66tET, 72tET, 78tET, 84tET, 90tET, 96tET, etc., etc., etc.). I think you may be confusing thirteenth-tones (78tET) with 13tET (thirteen divisions of the octave)

As someone that explores alternate temperaments almost exclusively, I can assure you that it is certainly not a waste of time, and it's certainly not pointless.

Again, as someone who deals with microtones constantly, I can assure you that it is more than possible for instruments to play outside of 12tET. Not just strings.

I don't know Carrillio's string quartet, but the only works of his that I've heard were in 96tET (sixteenth-tones).

This is a bit tangential to your topic but related. Woodwinds can produce wonderful microtones either as a single or far more interesting as multiphonics. Flute produces multiphonics most easily but clarinet and oboe can. Only warning is you need to work with the player.

If you like an example of multiphonics on the clarinet you can check out this piece I wrote in close collaboration with a clarinetist 2 years ago: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=889445

Go to Intro and Variation 1

I also wrote a clarinet piece that uses microtones. It uses a 31-tone Just intonation, actually. I've also written a bassoon and cello duo in which the bassoon plays a 27-tone "interval-cycle-based" tuning (kinda like Pythagorean, or Meantone) against the cello's 18tET. An orchestral piece that uses quarter-tones in the winds, strings, and brass, 15tET in the guitar, and 21 1/4tET in the electric organ (which is, obviously, not as big of a deal as the others). Plus many other microtonal works (string quartet, tuba quartet, timpani quartet, guitar trio, guitar solo, whatever else I've written...), which have been played.

So trust me, I know from experience that this all is possible!

An student can play microtones in a woodwinds strings or whatever, the thing is to play the microtones called in the score...

Pros can play it when and how if is within a reasonable technique, I would say that only if you play (or can work together with the player) of an specific instrument, write those microtones, if not, is highly possible that the score is calling for nonsence, I could call for weird not in a Sax if I know how to play them, I wouldn't dare to write a crazy score with those notes in Horns or something I have no idea of what I'm asking for.

Electronics is the only way I would support, but that is good news, almost anyone have access to virtual instruments can be easly manipulated in pitch.

I may seem closedmind but I tent to underestimate this issues because it seems that they only set me away from my style

By the way, it is interesting that many people who are against alternate tunings say that it is too much work for nothing, waste of time, etc., while at the same time they actually paid almost none attention to the topic both theoretically and practically to see if this is really the case. I certainly don't think it is a waste of time - I personally think that tuning and timbre are among the musical areas that offer vast reservours for exploration and expressiveness. So it is certainly worth it.

An student can play microtones in a woodwinds strings or whatever, the thing is to play the microtones called in the score...

Pros can play it when and how if is within a reasonable technique, I would say that only if you play (or can work together with the player) of an specific instrument, write those microtones, if not, is highly possible that the score is calling for nonsence, I could call for weird not in a Sax if I know how to play them, I wouldn't dare to write a crazy score with those notes in Horns or something I have no idea of what I'm asking for.

Electronics is the only way I would support, but that is good news, almost anyone have access to virtual instruments can be easly manipulated in pitch.

I may seem closedmind but I tent to underestimate this issues because it seems that they only set me away from my style

I give players a tuning system, a way to produce that system (fingering charts, etc.), a way to play back and listen to the tuning, and tips on learning the intonation. It works out. I get the microtones I ask for.

And, by the way, students have done my pieces. And played what I wanted.

By the way, it is interesting that many people who are against alternate tunings say that it is too much work for nothing, waste of time, etc., while at the same time they actually paid almost none attention to the topic both theoretically and practically to see if this is really the case. I certainly don't think it is a waste of time - I personally think that tuning and timbre are among the musical areas that offer vast reservours for exploration and expressiveness. So it is certainly worth it.

Agreed.

Well, hold it, I'm not strictly against it, I only said, I didn't like the results very much, at least not more than the usual 12 ... but that's a mere personal issue, like I would have said "I heard the last Madonna song and I didn't like it" something like that but nothing more

In that case, I think it would be just great to have somekind of tutorial (like the ones Tokke is doing) about this and give a better responce to members like this Ness in the original post, I shared the info I have (the frequenices I used) maybe someone could post something about acoustic instruments, (i've seen fingering charts in other sites, but were very incomplete) or this has to be done always by the composer always ? I mean like "you want to make weird stuff, you find out how to do it" ... ? I don't think so.

for instance I still can not create the score of my piece in 13s, I've seen a lot of altern staves systems but no one seems to fit my needs....

Yeah, it would be great.

But there isn't really anyone else on this site that would be able to do it (that I know of).

And I don't know that I have the time to write up long-winded discussions of microtonal history, theory, application, performance, etc. Nor do I know if there is really much interest in the forums. Plus I already gave up the whole teaching thing here!

That being said, I will again say that I am more than happy to help or discuss the topic of tuning/intonation/microtonality/etc. with anyone interested. Just send me a message.

Who knows, if I get a lot of PMs I'll start a thread for it.

I would just like to say, that with enough spectral and harmonic/overtone voodo, any peice in a strange temperment can sound great! Take this peice in 11 edo for example: (11 and 13 edo are some of the strangest sounding equal temperments in my opinion)

http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/mp3s/dabo_girl.html

In some cases, it dosen't even need voodo, because either it is a relitivley tame temperment like 19 and 17 equal, or you don't want the connasance that the voodo provides, but the harsh dissonances that microtonality sometimes provides, like in horror music.

This is so disturbingly dissonant and epic!:

Another potential use for microtonality would be in emulating arabic music by using quarter tones. (A.K.A, 24 EDO)

Here is one of my short peices that uses a few quarter tones:

http://forum.youngcomposers.com/t21802/creepy-music/

(Oh, and EDO stands for Equal Divisions of the Octave BTW)