Developing independence of hands

So I have been playing both the piano (keyboards) and a drumset and I have a good amount of hand dexterity and independence, but now a days I keep finding that I lack the skill to play something I think of. So what I want to ask you guys is what are the exercises that helped you, some insights, how much ambidexterity you think you have? (I'd say a good amount would be to play two separate melodic lines on the piano in different time signatures).

the skill to play something I think of.

?? You mean improvising?

Write it out, then practice it.

?? You mean improvising?

Write it out, then practice it.

Well I know that's the most logical thing I should do. And I do it. But I'm currently on a quest to developing ambidexterity so I want to get as much useful advice as I can. Not just ambidexterity on an instrument but in general.

Try some of the godowsky-chopin etudes for one hand. And you could always play ravel's pianoconcert for left hand...

(I might be confusing cause and result here)

Well to play in two different time signatures is really not that hard. I'd say playing in two differently divided subdivisions.

Something I have had a great time with is a 23 note melody - it could be anything. The one hand plays it as steady beats while the other hand plays it shifting between quadruplets and triplets. This could also be anything...

This is not a general exercise more than a piano exercise. For another instrument try just playing the rhythmically busy line and play it - then sing the steady line - tap 23 beats with the right foot then switch to 23 with the left.

I find it meaningless to play written music to train yourself, since you have to trigger your own development - you can make your own exercises for everything.

i think the major problem in playing independently on both hands is counter point movement.

poly rhythmic on two hands can be learned quite fast, and playing riffs left hand and improvising on the right, also.

Phantom, asking that just goes to show you'll find the answer. for example, my main instrument is guitar, even though i play decently drums & piano, playing counterpoint movement, or improvising harmonic movements fluently in high speed is very challenging-but i think that's what will make me a better composer.

counter point movement in guitar is ALOT more cumbersome than piano, since its like playing two lines in one hand, so being ambidextrous in guitar is still light years away from the same level on piano-so i believe piano is the best instrument to develop this.

Well you are right J, I'm very well aware of that and I think that improving will definitely make all the difference when it comes to coming up with some themes and melodies since you can improvise effortlessly.

The average brain simply does not have the capability to perceive multiple stimuli distinctly, nor is it able to direct multiple commands. Whenever we practice polyrythms on the piano, for example, we exert direct control on the sounds : thus, a 3:2 polyrhythm would be approximated by our brain as 4 beats occupying the ratio 2:1:1:2. Thus, in increasingly complex polyrhythms which are not divisible into groups of a small-enough-to-be-counted lowest common multiples, our brain gives up, and does break it into uneven groups. To achieve greater control over polyrhythms, one has to count - very slowly, until our brain is able to perceive the 'polyrhythm' as one complex rhythm. If you choose to throw caution to the wind, simply play all the notes in each hand in a given time. This works horribly in slower pieces, of course.

Two time signatures is significantly easier : so long as one eighth note on one melodic line matches another eighth note in the other melodic line, it is a matter of consciously directing the accents.

Now, two melodic lines. This is very easy if they are in the same time signatures, and each melodic line is wielded by a separate hand. Two melodic lines in a single hand (something which finds limited use on the guitar, considering the instrument's capabilities) is far more difficult, and again you must consciously direct each finger and their respective tone.

Exercises, eh? I must tell you that there is no easy way out apart from practice, practice and practice. Well, a few pointers :

PLAY CLASSICAL! Not pop transcriptions or even jazz. I would suggest Bach's Well Tempered Clavier. If you are sufficiently advanced it would take you no more than a week to learn each piece. This is a very good exercise for multiple voices and independence of hands. If you are more adventurous you could try Prokofiev's Toccata, or Chopin's Etudes - particularly the second, fourth and twelfth of the first set, and the seventh and eleventh of the second set, or Liszt's Feux Follets, which is excellent if you want to maintain different motions in separate hands.

Banal exercises help. Practice polyrhythmic scales to get the juices right. 3 against 2, 3 against 4, 9 against 8, and maybe later 3 against 5 and 4 against 5. Contrary motion scales help, too. You may also want to try practicing scales in one hand and arpeggios in the other : for example, an F major scale, downwards in the left hand and a F major seventh, upwards on the right hand. This would produce a fine 7:4 effect.

To add to John Bucket's recommendation - try very very slowly the Brahms 51 Etudes. Many of them are exercises in 2 against 3, 3 against 4, 6 against 4. And also good to understand the subdivisions. In Read's Notation book he offers a great graphing of where the beats fall when playing multiple rhythms.

And may I add Bach's Two part inventions. They did and do the trick for me.

John - disagree about learning Well Tempered Clavier pieces in a week. At best you will get the notes and rhythms done slowly but to make it music takes a far longer time. Plus some of the fugues are impossible to get down in one week - the D # minor and A minor in Book 1, the B flat minor and F # minor in Book 2.

you may want to start on a more basic level too. what i mean by that is, developing the muscles in your weaker hand. I taught a lot of young drummers, and one of the things I had them do, was switch their hands for everyday tasks. ie brushing teeth, combing hair, eating, opening doors. You have to be able to get the weaker hand to respond to brain stimuli as well as develop the smaller muscles in your hand....

ikqdrum: That's a great tip. I have been doing that for 5 years now

I agree with Johnbucket. The Well-Tempered Clavier is wonderful. I wouldn't suggest doing (boring) technique excercises when all you need to learn is in the WTC. (I don't suggest trying to learn them in a week though. Technique can't be rushed.) Learn as many of the preludes and fugues as you can. It's been called the "Old testament of keyboard literature" for a reason. (Beethoven's piano sonatas being the "New Testament.") Study them, learn as much as you can. You'll pretty much be a beast, independace-wise, if you learn like 15 or 20 of them. Anyways, that's just my 2 cents. BY THE WAY: I'm seeing alot of common misconceptions about technique here. For one thing, excercises aren't for "developing finger strength." They're for developing finger DEXTERITY. Trying to strengthen the weak fingers is what got Schumann into trouble. The muscles in our fingers are too small to be strengthened past a certain point, that's why we implement our larger muscles and distribute the energy and strength efficiently. You can severely damage your hand if you're not careful. That's why Schumann had to retire from performance. Think of it as finger interdependance, rather than independance. No matter how hard you try, your fingers will never be completely independent on their own. I recommend getting a book called "On Piano Playing" by Gyorgy Sandor. He was a protege of Bartok and the champion of Bartok's music. He had Lisztian technique, so this man has some credibility. "On Piano Playing" is fairly expensive, but it's worth every cent.

I agree with Alex. The fingering strength is a misconception.

Try to read all of this:

A lot of useful links in Pianostreet.com

(is very helpful)

Greetings.

It helped me out to do simple exercises (I am not that good in piano, so maybe that's already a problem :P, but I play the guitar at a high level). The one I would advice is the Battle from hans zimmer transcribed for piano, or anything like that. Because with the left hand you are doing quarter notes + triplets, while with the right hand you are doing the melody in just quarter notes. Very confusing when you want to just start playing both of them at the same time. But maybe it's just me :P