Perfect Pitch

hey guys! i wasn't sure where to put this topic, but i hope you'll see it here. Haha.

anyhoo, i was wondering if you guys have heard of websites like www.perfectpitch.com , www.absolutepowerpitch.com and some other ones. They both offer you CD's for x amount of money that will teach you to have perfect pitch (like being able to recongnize/name notes when somebody plays it, knowing the key signature of a song, hearing a song and knowing how to play it, knowing if a note is sharp/flat without reference, knowing a piece of music sounds just by looking at it, etc.) They say perfect pitch doesn't have to be a quality that can only be achieved by being born with it, they say that you can learn to have it.

I want to buy it really bad, but first want to check with you guys if you think it's a good buy, if you've heard that it works, or if i'll just be waisting my money.

lemme know and thanks...i'll be anxiously waiting your replies!

No, no, no, no, no!!!! Perfect pitch is an unnecessary skill! You do not need it to be a better musician or person. Many of the great composers and pianists did not have it. Just because that a large quantity of professional musicians have it does not mean it contributed to thier success. It is probable that because they had perfect pitch as children, they were more interested in music than others - but it is no replacement for dedication, hard work, and above all creativity.

Anyways, relative pitch is an important skill for a musician that can be learned, and something tells me that is what these CDs really teach. A person with extremely good relative pitch can hear these thing as well as one with perfect pitch.

But don't buy these! Trying to "learn" perfect pitch is the equivalent of a blind person "learning" to use thier eyes to see. If you don't have perfect pitch now, it is a sense you have permanently lost or never acquired as a child. These CDs merely prey on the myth of perfect pitch=genius to make some quick cash for themselves.

But, there were quotes from people on the websites who tried it and said it worked. And, I'm not trying to make money from it, i just want to be a better musician by having a better ear. What's wrong with that? These CD's just provide a faster way for me to have a better ear. I know it won't necessarily make me the next Beethoven or Mozart, but what if i want to have a better ear so i will simply be able to play whatever songs i want to (without the music for it). What if i want to know how to hear the music i see on a piece of sheet music? I know it will help me with that, but i also know that there will always be those who are better than me and that i will not become some famous composer. I'm not going to buy the CD's so i can become famous, rich, and all that stuff. I just want to be a better musician, with greater talent, and a better ear. is that so wrong?

p.s. on the fist post on this thread, i got one of the links messed up. it's www.absolutepitchpower.com not www.absolutepowerpitch.com. Just, thought i'ld letchya know.

No, it's not wrong. It's just not absolutely necessary, as Nightscape says. But if you believe it will be an asset to your musicianship and the financial outlay makes sense, then by all means give it a try.

I used to think I had perfect pitch, but now I believe I have very good pitch memory and relative pitch. I am the cantor at my church, so it's my job to begin all the Gregorian chants by myself, and the choir joins me after I've sung a few words alone (this is called an incipit). This means I have to begin in the correct mode at the correct pitch without prompting from the organist, and I rely on my pitch memory for this (hmmm...what does a G sound like? Ah yes...). 9 times out of 10 I'm spot on, but once in a while I get a little confused and I'll come in about a semitone off (rarely more than that), where if I had perfect pitch, I'd never miss.

Also, while I can almost always identify an isolated pitch I hear, I cannot always tell whether it's in tune unless I hear it related to other pitches that are reliably in tune. A person with perfect pitch would be able not only to identify an isolated pitch, but also tell you if it's sharp or flat. It is said that Mozart could tell if a pitch was out of tune within "an eighth of a quarter of a tone," or 1/32 of a tone. Assuming they meant a whole tone, that's 6.25 cents, or a little over 6/100 of a semitone. That's pretty damned accurate. Of course, I wonder how he dealt with the many tuning standards (which varied by as much as a minor third) and temperaments that were in use from place to place and in various situations during the 18th Century.

so, you think i should go for it if i really want it? I also know that it's not necessary, but i think it would make music more enjoyable and overall improve my playing.

It's funny I was wondering the same thing about those sites as you, pianogirl. I'm also tempted. Here is how I look at it: if it doesn't actually enable a person to have perfect pitch, there still must be valuable ear training, right?

On that topic, does anyone recommend any real valid methods of training your ear for music? say, identifying intervals, scales, chords, and, why not, individual notes (maybe not that)

But, there were quotes from people on the websites who tried it and said it worked.

If you really want to go for it, then do it - it's your choice, but I would take the claims made on a company's web site a little tongue in cheek, fi you know what I mean. There are plenty of ways that they can either..

1. Do this legally but not actually have "real" testimonials,

2. Just plain do it illegally and lie, making up fake names. I know that Sony recently did that with their previews citing fake journalists.

3. Just get some of their own employees to give testimonials.

...

Basically I'm saying, don't let these testimonials sway your decision one way or another.

There's one issue that I think you should definitely consider. At times, perfect pitch can be a handicap. Many Baroque ensembles, for example, tune a quarter tone or even almost a half step lower than standard tuning, in order to replicate what listeners in the 18th century would have heard. If you have perfect pitch and you listen to music played by a Baroque ensemble (or if you're playing in one) you may well be disturbed by the different tuning.

That said, you should definitely develop relative pitch. If you want to be able to do things like sight-singing or playing by ear, then that will pay the same dividends as perfect pitch.

I was also interested in those CDs a few months ago. Before purchasing, though, I downloaded the first few CDs and gave them a listen. They do take you through exercises that help you recognize the different tampers and sounds that each note has. In the end I didn't end up buying the CDs, though.

cavatina, i've been talking to my dad and he's warned me not to put too much stock into what the quotes are. So, i'm take that into consideration.

Caltech, i honestly don't think i'll have to worry about that, because i doubt i'll ever play Baroque music and i don't have a particular interest in it. And, also what about the people who have perfect pitch naturally, wouldn't Baroque music bother them? but, thanks for the warning.

Tophue, why didn't you end up buying the CD's? didn't they work?

Generally, people who have perfect pitch zero in on the tuning that they hear the most of. As for whether Baroque music bothers people who do have perfect pitch... I distinctly remember Marisa saying she'd heard a Baroque recording and thought it sounded odd. Ask her about that.

Oh yes. That was when I couldn't figure out why that Vivaldi CD I bought had been recorded a semitone too low. Heh.

I think what Lee says applies to me as well; I used to think I had something very close to perfect pitch. Now I'm pretty sure this isn't the case; I can nearly always identify notes or intervals being played, or come up with them myself, but I can't usually tell how close they are to being in tune (unless they're really off - or I'm having one of those days when I just seem to be so much more musically sensitive. Those are cool. Except I so rarely notice them while they're happening).

Period recordings do bother me, though - even when they're just a semitone different. I experience each note and each key signature really differently; I don't really know how to explain it. I know I've tried assigning colours and something akin to personality traits to them, but it doesn't satisfy me. I'll keep trying.

But yeah. I'm a pretty logical (uh, and perfectionistic) person; hearing something in C-sharp said to be in D just annoys the heck out of me. Plus, I'm really not a fan of the keys in the modern scale with lots of sharps and flats, which tend to result a lot in period recordings I've found.

In theory I have nothing against period recordings really; I realise that they're a better representation of the original intention of the composer. I respect that. And honestly, I would much rather that, should the scale change any more, the name of the keys of my various compositions be changed (rather than the actual pitches). It's just how familiar and distinctive the modern scale pitches have become in my mind that's been the problem here, I think.

Marisa, were I not such an authenticity freak, I'd probably find period instruments recordings at low pitch a little off-putting too. I believe each key has a particular aural colour or flavour, for lack of better terms, and I don't appreciate it much when arrangers transpose pieces out of their original keys, regardless of their reason for doing so. Despite the vast array of transpositions of art songs available to singers, I try never to sing art song in any key but the original as intended by the composer - no matter how difficult it may be. It's a "thing" I have.

For me, one of the aspects that redeem period instrument performances - particularly those involving stringed instruments - is that although the instruments are tuned down a semitone, the ubiquitous open strings played in authentic performances (they often play open strings when most of us would finger the same note on another string) have a reorienting effect, so I'm able to adjust more easily. And as a frequent performer in baroque ensembles, I learnt early not only to get used to Baroque pitch, but also to various tuning temperaments. I distinctly remember having to tune my viola differently to be in tune with the harpsichord when it was tuned to certain temperaments that sounded good with the keys we were playing in - an odd sensation, but it begins to make sense with experience.

Originally posted by J. Lee Graham@Aug 17 2005, 11:05 PM

I believe each key has a particular aural colour or flavour, for lack of better terms, and I don't appreciate it much when arrangers transpose pieces out of their original keys, regardless of their reason for doing so.

Beethoven would be your best friend for this!

My dear friends Mr. Graham and Miss Brook:

What is worse: singing at an incorrect pitch relative to what the composer heard at their time of living, or; singing in an altered key which is correct in relative pitch to what the composer would have heard?

Obviously, the answer would be to retune the instruments (like period copies in the original pitch (A=415, etc. etc.)), though this would bring about problems that existed before tuning pitches were more normalised. Note that we still do not have a worldwide standard for western pitch tuning. A=440 is one standard, but I think in continental Europe it's A=442 or something like that. Also, it would be a pain for keyboard instruments: especially organs. Having C sounding a concert D would be the ideal way to get colouristic relationships to be correct.

Does sense this any make?

Does sense this any make?

You've spent some time in Germanic countries recently, haven't you?

Yes, it does sense make. But the colours I've associated with certain keys are based upon the tuning system that has been the standard throughout my lifetime in my time and place. Learning to reassociate with other systems has taken some doing.

I've just started learning the theremin... and I must say, perfect pitch would be SOOOOO useful. You can hold a note, and sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly drift, and have no idea you've changed at all. It's a frustrating, but amazing instrument. And I'm still to play a tune on it which doesn't sound like one of Jacob's 'interpretations'.... ;):)

hey guys. So it pretty much sounds like learning relative pitch would be a much better investment that learning perfect pitch? that's what i've been gathering from all of your in-depth conversations :cool: .

Hi there,

What I have to say about Absolute Pitch is that I do believe it may help in becoming a better musician.

The first musical ear one should definately develop is Relative Pitch.

Then you may start working on Absolute Pitch if you want to.

I have been working on the Perfect Pitch supercourse of David Lucas Burge too, but got stuck on Master class 22, which basically is the last Masterclass to do in order to have developed Absolute Pitch.

If you are interested in his PP course you may want to try some libraries first before buying them. PianoGirl, if you are still interested?

The reason why I got stuck?

Well, D. Burge exercises will start developing your ear in hearing a "phantom" tone, which will be the tone C.

This means that when you will hear a tone sounded, you are able to tell which tone it is, because you can somehow hear where the tone C belongs in that scale.

Am I now then able to sing or mentally hear the tone C whenever I wish?

No!

I do not know how it sounds, I do not remember the tone C. It may sound funny and weird, but it is so.

Master class 22 is about identifying three tones harmonically, which are a black and two white keys (on the keyboard or piano for example)

Well, I was not able to do this because of this "phantom C".

I am not sure why not, but it somehow messess up my internal scale, which I used to use in identify my tones with.

The "phantom C" was supposed to vanish as I would progress in the exercises of the Master classes, but mine did not. It was too much on the foreground of my hearing.

I now know how I may get through this Master class, by following my "feelings" instead of what I hear.

This allows me to get the answers correct when practicing.

As Burge will tell you, it is eventually all about how it feels to you. Not physically, but as an inner sensation.

Well, does this help a little?

Take care,

Elcon

yes, it did help me, Elcon. thanks!

so, i'm going to learn relative pitch better and then once i get that good, i'll think about learning perfect pitch. I don't think i'll buy from David Burge's CD's cuz they cost WAY too much. lol.

thanks for the info everyone!

"I have been working on the Perfect Pitch supercourse of David Lucas Burge too, but got stuck on Master class 22, which basically is the last Masterclass to do in order to have developed Absolute Pitch."

You got stuck because, probably, you don't have a natural function for perfect pitch. Very few people are thought to have this function. Absolute pitch is merely the learning of intervals. Not just the intervals of a scale, but invervals including harmonics: harmonics are, I suspect, these so-called "phantom pitches" you talk about. What a load of blarney, may I say? All you need is a Piano and you will be able to 'learn' how to have absolute pitch.

Anyone who has any decent pitching skills on an instrument that requires some degree of tuning per note will have reasonable absolute pitch skills whether or not they realise it.

This subject (and stupidly expensive 'teach yourselves perfect pitch' kits) annoys me very much.

To PianoGirl:

Developing your RP is basically unlimited as I am told. Where does it stop, you know what I mean?

All I wanted AP for was just of identifying tones I heard, that's all. Altough I am a singer, I do not want it because of that. I do not care much for RP, altough it may give me much more pleasure in music perhaps.

If you want AP just for that, then you won't have to wait untill you believe you have a well developed RP ear.

Once again, try the library and see if they may have it.

To David:

Maybe, maybe not.

I am now working on his exercises again. We'll see how far I'll get this time.

Take care,

Elcon

yes, it did help me, Elcon. thanks!

so, i'm going to learn relative pitch better and then once i get that good, i'll think about learning perfect pitch. I don't think i'll buy from David Burge's CD's cuz they cost WAY too much. lol.

thanks for the info everyone!

I'd recommend David Burge's CDs, I use them and I'm noticing great improvements. I think it would be a very benefitial decision for you to buy his Perfect Pitch CDs, but I caution you: there are many imitators who claim to teach Perfect Pitch that actually don't; David Lucas Burge's method is the only one with multiple, independent university studies by professors prooving that his method actually does work.

Anyone who says that Perfect Pitch can't be learned or isn't worth it is simply wrong. No, you don't need Perfect Pitch to be a good musician, but it will help you immensly, especially if you compose. Whether or not you want to spend the time acquiring it is up to you. It's worth it to me, and that's why I work hard at it.

I have perfect pitch. I think that I was born with it. As a young child, I did not know the names of the notes, but every note had a certain feeling. I was greatly uncomfortable when songs were transposed to another key but I couldn't explain this feeling. I did not learn until much later that this was perfect pitch.

I would like to purchase the Burge CDs so that I can become better at it. I am correct about 99% of the time when naming notes, but I would like to be accurate at 'quartertones' at well and have the ability to measure notes in 'cents'. Will the Burge CDs help me to develop this accuracy, or will it confuse me - I've read the threads about the 'phantom' notes and I do not think that I will like this method.

Has anyone used the Burge CDs in order to 'perfect' their "perfect pitch"?

don't forget the disadvantages to perfect pitch:

when someone's singing a song in a different key than it was originally written in, it's very unnerving.

The fact that I've listened to mostly baroque music on original instruments means I'm always a half step above normal. (when I say A, it's really Ab- that makes you look really dumb) Then there's the fact that I tune my flute down a half-step half the time, thinking it's right.

So, needless to say, whether or not it's possible to 'learn' perfect pitch, the disadvantages can even out the advantages.