Composition 101

So.

I've never had lessons. Anyone think they can put me through some paces to see where I'm at? Start as slow as you like, go as far as you'd like. It'd be AWESOME if someone could give me a masterclass. :) But I wouldn't expect that, it is quite a bit of work.

I'm taking lessons soon, but somehow I don't think he'd really start "from the beginning" because he's seen me compose and arrange a few times before...I kinda wanna see what sorta things I mighta missed that are really fundamental before assuming I know them, you know?

-Pete

har, its good to start modest for sure. that way you get more authenticity from the composition.

i heard you A minor sonata, its very decent work, it lacks some powerful melodic motives, but there is feel and style.

i'm not sure what authority could direct and educate you, i'm not aware of any masters that dropped me off the chair when i heard them, maybe the ones who had full orchestra to their disposal, still-the great masters of compositions have said their thing, its out there already. meaning, listen to them and learn from them.

you can go about it and talk, learn, do exercises, but in the end its what comes out of you in the process and if you're wielding the tools of good composition after doing all that-and to my opinion its always self work, since you yourself are the essence of A composition.

just me 2 pezo.

Honestly, the thing that has taught me the most about composition is PLAYING. Play your instrument, get really good at it, and learn lots of music. You'll learn so much about the way a great composition works by playing great compositions. Look at great composers like Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, etc. They could play the heck out of their instruments. Sheesh, Beethoven barely composed at all until he was in his twenties - well after he had been established as a virtuoso pianist (and possibly virtuoso violinist, I'm not sure.) Composition lessons are great, absolutely, but playing will really help you understand the craft and the artistry. If you have an instrument teacher, ask him/her to get very in-depth with you when you learn a composition: as in-depth as they will go. I've had exactly one composition lesson in my life, but I would consider myself a much better composer than I was a year ago. Why? Because I'm a better pianist and musician than I was a year ago. I've barely composed anything between now and then, but I've still managed to improve exponentially. That's just my two cents. If you're already a virtuoso at your instrument then, well, nevermind. :D

Have to listen to more but listening to your Contemporary classical piece I have to say you could use some work writing contrapuntal stuff (I am a big fan otof it) and as has been said before some review of instrumentation just for securing your knowledge of ranges and possibilities for different skill levels. Also, granted this is a band but you do have some long lines in the clarinet which would demand some good players there.

Now why I say counterpoint - well you middle lines are good in harmonic support and your drones work - it is just how you move to some of your drones. The key changes seem a bit sudden . Now if this was intentional - which I think it could have been - then bravo. However I feel it isn't entirely by the lack of pedal points in the piece which would help. What you have is good especially from someone who hasn't done formal composition study.

I'd also take some advanced harmony courses and analysis. You have great ideas in the Aegean piece but it feels like a too short overture. Your melodies have great contours and some interesting harmonic possibilities. I think you could explore them more.

I wish I could offer lessons but too busy and some area such as band orchestration and orchestral writing are not my strong suit.

I will give one hint to becoming a good composer - work on your free counterpoint. One way to do this is write a duo for two similar instruments (a Eflat and B flat clarinets, baritone and soprano sax, two violins, etc) and see what you could do with two lines and whether you could imply more lines. If you want a framework take an 8 - 16 bar progression from a song as your framework to derive melodies and more harmonies while refering even obliquely to the harmonic progression you chose. I don't think it would be too hard - but I'd advise really creating a wide variety textures and interesting passing harmonies to shape the form of the piece.

After you finish it and post it here and show to your teacher, try a wind quintet, then go back to writing for a concert bank or small orchestra.

I think the suggestions may be a little too technical for what the OP is asking for.

So, what I'd suggest instead is just to try to go back and think sounds. Don't worry about melodies, forms, whatever, just think about sounds you like, sounds you don't like. Chords maybe, or different instruments, or whatever. Start looking for stuff you like, and think about why you like it. Do the same for the things you don't like.

Think of material that way, that is, the raw elements of what people put together as music to begin with. It could help you discover things, or help you understand your own reactions better. The entire time it's obviously a matter of introspective analysis to some degree, you need to be aware of your own reactions to things and why you think you have these reactions. It certainly influences what you're writing.

Another thing too is to write short pieces, of maybe a minute at most. Try out ideas without worrying about whatever intellectual crap you normally do. Just go by "ear," really. Make stuff even if you think you won't like it, you never know.

But yeah, that's my advice.

I think I've seen some great suggestions here, but I didn't see many suggestions for what I think is the most important aspect of composition - listening. I've heard too many make suggestions about studying more music theory, finding what you like, learning more counterpoint or something, and these are all fine ideas... but they get you nowhere unless you listen to everything that's out there around you, inspiring you to be a composer. There's got to be something that sparked this interest in you. For me it was a bunch of film composers like John Williams, Max Steiner, and Jerry Goldsmith. So, first things first, find recordings of all sorts of music that interests you. Then start buying up scores of these works and use your music theory knowledge to study them. I've found no better way to learn music than this process right here. You just have to discipline yourself to keep listening to music you've never heard before and learn about the things you like in those works.

So some great stuff here, but I think what I need is more basic than a lot of the suggestions here. My problem is with conceptualization. Arranging (and orchestrating) isn't that hard for me, the concept is already there I just have to set it to a certain group of instruments to make it sound good and true to the original. My problem is with coming up with something completely on my own, concept through realization at the basic level. I don't think orchestration has much to do with it at this point in time: once the concept and basic realization is in place, the rest of the work is cake.

Well then peter take both SSC and AntiA's advice reduced to this -

Listen widely, find sounds you like, think how you'd like to put them together and starting with short pieces (no more than a minute)write something. Don't cross anything out - nothing at all and stop.

So what music or sounds do you like?

I'll offer some help -

Right now I am in love or exploring with the following pieces:

Schoenberg's Woodwind Quintet

Practically anything by Dufay and some DeVitry

Lassus' more chromatic works

Brahm's 3rd (the one piece I'd love to have played at my funeral especially the first and third movements)

Mahler's 9th

Cipriano de Rore - love what little I have heard but hard to find recordings and performances of his stuff

Monteverdi's orfeo

Peri's music performed on a Cd put out by the harmonia mundi label.

ooh and one Part piece - Sarabande after Bach - just found it

The following sounds I'll stop in my tracks to listen

Birdsong - usually dusk brings about some gorgeous stuff from birds.

A quiet city morning - the occasional whoosh of a car, church bells ringing in matins, and the footstep of a few people and rustle of the tree outside my window always pleases me

Also realize your initial idea doesn't have to be much - it is more what you do with it. That is why you don't edit at first - your mind is exploring the ideas you get from the music you explore or love and the environment you are immersed.

Listen widely, find sounds you like, think how you'd like to put them together and starting with short pieces (no more than a minute)write something. Don't cross anything out - nothing at all and stop.

What do you mean by "sound"? Are we talking a piece of music or a phrase.

Peter - you are overthinking this and are far too critical.

As for sounds it could be 4 notes from birdsong you heard, a certain instrumentation you heard, or a section of a piece.

If you really like a piece do what a teacher of mine called "idea searching". Look at the score and marked those sections you liked most and why. Copy those parts and play them at the piano or if you don't play sing lines and relisten to that section. Then take a motif from such a piece and see what you would do with it.

peter, another suggestion for you-

how are you with improvising? are you good at it? do you like what comes out of your hands? how well can you picture something in your mind and translate it to action to materialize it in playing context?

if you're not happy with your improvising, i suggest you take a scale, get a bunch of chord progression you like, and explore!

if you are familiar with theory you can find the correct scale(or the wrong one intentionally) for that set of chords.

once you find your way there, you can start thinking about motives. not just scatter all about-but getting a motif you like, and develop it properly-like a great solo, or a composition-you can rework it and not just play on real time, but improvising, going with the hunch-eyes closed etc, is one way of getting the job done.

that way you correct yourself every time you don't like what came out spontaneously, you will have to remember the good improvisation though, so pay attention to what you play!

Peter - you are overthinking this and are far too critical.

As for sounds it could be 4 notes from birdsong you heard, a certain instrumentation you heard, or a section of a piece.

If you really like a piece do what a teacher of mine called "idea searching". Look at the score and marked those sections you liked most and why. Copy those parts and play them at the piano or if you don't play sing lines and relisten to that section. Then take a motif from such a piece and see what you would do with it.

Overthinking what??

Okay, say I'm thinking of a saxophone soli run for a Goodwin-esque big band chart (actually, I think it IS a Goodwin tune, I'm not sure), 4/4, starts on beat 2 through beat 1 of the next measure, landing on a very hot, dissonant chord with a bell-tone echo after that for a measure. See attached file for the transcription. Now, for your exercise you're suggesting, do I now take it and run with it for about a minute, orchestrated for simple saxophone quintet? Avoiding erasing stuff.

peter, another suggestion for you-

how are you with improvising? are you good at it? do you like what comes out of your hands? how well can you picture something in your mind and translate it to action to materialize it in playing context?

if you're not happy with your improvising, i suggest you take a scale, get a bunch of chord progression you like, and explore!

if you are familiar with theory you can find the correct scale(or the wrong one intentionally) for that set of chords.

once you find your way there, you can start thinking about motives. not just scatter all about-but getting a motif you like, and develop it properly-like a great solo, or a composition-you can rework it and not just play on real time, but improvising, going with the hunch-eyes closed etc, is one way of getting the job done.

that way you correct yourself every time you don't like what came out spontaneously, you will have to remember the good improvisation though, so pay attention to what you play!

I should have mentioned this earlier, but unfortunately I am not a piano player. I'm a pretty good improv at slow tempi. If I picture something in my mind, the simpler stuff I can reproduce on my horn in context, the more complicated stuff I can isolate and transcribe onto notation. That's actually why I've taken my hand up with arranging and transcribing (the Green Hornet adaptation I uploaded onto YC was done entirely by ear).

I don't see how this helps with fundamental composing, though. With improvisation, usually your form and harmonic motion is set out for you.

Well, here's the result of the exercise.

http://forum.youngcomposers.com/t26860/a-gentle-experiment/

Any thoughts, guys?

har, i don't see anything wrong with your piece, you looked for motives and brought tension in an A-tonal kinda way, which is good.

i like it as is, but if you think you got something there to work with, you can structure it ways better, focus on the good parts and develop them when they are more accurate.

as an artistic piece its fine on its own, since there are no guides to what the music should say beside conveying what you felt.

the real question is then for you- did what you compose there sound what you pictured in your head or not?

p.s.

regarding

With improvisation, usually your form and harmonic motion is set out for you.

besides the fact that most composer use alot of similar chord changes-

don't underestimate the power of spontaneity - if you are truely a master in improvisation you can transcribe any feel you picture into notes-in real time.

but its not a path for classical composer to take.

the real question is then for you- did what you compose there sound what you pictured in your head or not?

Well, in a way absolutely. There's nothing in here I don't like.

But I felt like I cheated myself out of a lot more development of the initial idea at the beginning before it slowed down (still waiting on someone to finger the shameless quote I put in there in the contrasting section. :P). That's a huge problem I have: wanting to leave a section REALLY fast so the section ends up being far shorter than I feel comfortable leaving it, and as a result (as Chris mentioned, don't erase once it's written), the first section is very short.

Perhaps a better amount of planning is warranted for each section before allowing myself to move on? Or something...

Also, as a matter of fact, I was picturing in my head some sort of jazz reference at some point...but there ended up being none except the hemiola sixteenth notes... mm. The composition took on its own life.

The composition took on its own life.

i love it when it happens. in any case, the best known way to be a better composer is, naturally, to compose-BUT to be also faithful to your art and intention.

you can vision something and something totally different will come out, but i think the trick is to maintain your original intent for the feel-atmosphere and of course what you are saying. since going for meaningless travels is always the easiest for us-because we own the knowledge in music and can easily escape to that direction instead of really having a say that anyone can relate to-yourself included.

Alright, there's some really good advice hear on developing inspiration and execution.

Hear's my question now:

what about planning? What kind of thought and process goes into planning where you want your piece to go and how you want it to progress? It can't all be simple intuition.

Alright, there's some really good advice hear on developing inspiration and execution.

Hear's my question now:

what about planning? What kind of thought and process goes into planning where you want your piece to go and how you want it to progress? It can't all be simple intuition.

It's not simple intuition really. You have to have an idea where you want your piece to go. Unless your using total alleatorical method, you have to plan and prepare. What kind of though and process goes into it? Well, from my perspective.. I look at my material, i'll listen to it a number of times (either plucking it out on the piano or listening to the rendered version of it.) I try to imagine all the possibilities that can come from that material. I think of the following: What does it say to me? What does it convey? What are its best points? What are its low points? Generally after this, I have a good idea in my mind where I want to take it and how I want to do it. However, its important to state that even that isn't set in stone. Points come and go int he writing process where MORE obstacles appear and I have to ask the same questions over and over again. Here lately, I've also been looking at my music from more than one angle - to get a good view of it. It's a tedious process - and I am my own critic, a lot harsher than others can be on me.

Tough call planning. You have a choice - set about composing in a set form and stick to it no matter what. Drawbacks - you allow the form to dictate all parameters. Pros: Easier to plan and , if smart, you tailor you thematic material to the confines of the form. Easy case is the instrumental Bach fugue. The subjects had a definite melodic profile that lends itself to breaking up into sequences, strettos in between the statement of the subject in the Tonic, Dom, etc while a countersubject of less melodic interest is stated. The harmonic plan is simple - Tonic to Dominant to Tonic. A more involved form would be the classical sonata of Mozart and early Beethoven. Even the traditional Mass offer a structure - the varied lengths of text and how some sections of the Mass have the text repeated while others don't.

Working with preset forms is good training in PREPARING materials for forms or recognizing what forms you material may be optimal for.

Working without a preset form in mind requires some planning but it can be done in so many ways. The right time to do it is hard to say but usually anywhere from after the first few sketches to about 1/3 into a piece it is best to determine a plan. I am working with a composer on this. One method is to graph your plan - it can be a curve, a organizational chart, graphic, written outline or even copying your ideas and assembling them together as if creating a collage (a method I read somewhere Stravinsky did ). Whatever method you use , it is necessary to ask the question jason poses in the post above. Finally when you are done, you may find material needs to be cut or expanded. Save the cut materials - for awhile. I usually keep it for a year and then toss it if to my ears it still sounds unpromising. I even do this with most failed pieces.

What is form? I have no idea myself, and I think it severely harms my compositions.