Conducting

hey , i was wondering what does it take for a person to be a conductor , i was reading on some website about conducting and when i watch orchestra's , the conductor rarely do the basic rhythmic gestures or moves . and that leads to my question , do the conductor really have musical training or maybe basic musical knowledge. and also why do conductors rarely do the familiar conducting moves?!?!

hey , i was wondering what does it take for a person to be a conductor , i was reading on some website about conducting and when i watch orchestra's , the conductor rarely do the basic rhythmic gestures or moves . and that leads to my question , do the conductor really have musical training or maybe basic musical knowledge. and also why do conductors rarely do the familiar conducting moves?!?!

Conductors will do familiar moves, especially in high schools and with ensembles that are less experienced. One thing more advanced conductors do is use gestures to transmit a specific kind of expression to the ensemble. It may be a dynamic change (makes the "shhh" gesture). He may need more diction (flutters his fingers in front of his mouth). He may want a phrase to sound sad so he'll reflect that emotion on his body, etc. If you watch a conductor carefully, you'll see he's a lot more focused on expression than on keeping a tempo. As long as the conductor shows a beat on his body, the ensemble should be able to follow him. Also, different gestures mean different things to different ensembles. The way one conducts an orchestra will be different from how one conducts a choir. E.g. traditionally, in choral conducting, a conductor's baton isn't used (though each specific conductor will have his own preference as to whether he or she should use one, but i'm just talking traditionally).

thanks for the reply , but do the conductor really have great music knowledge or just the ability to communicate with players in a great way?

oh the conductor knows EVERYTHING.... really scary even. He knows composition, orchestration and instrumental techniques - besides that he knows conducting

A Conductor is not a metronome, is the person who plays the work, as bryla says, Conductors must have (because they need to have) a large background of musical knowledge, Very good score-reading, (not necesarily at the moment of the formal performance) Know all (orchestral) instruments (ranges, capabilities, limitations etc) Play several of those not just theorical stuff, Excellent ear training (know when someone is playing wrong), Not stage panic etc.

What a conductor does, is mark the tempo and its changes, mark (previously speficy if needed) modulations and loudness/softness of all instruments, inspire and transmit the desired feeling to the orchestra, mark entrances and exits of instruments when needed and many other things...

The conductor does most of his job during the rehearsals, common people don't see rehearsals, only watch conductor in the concert when almost everything has been done already.

Each conductor has its style to rehearsal the orchestra, from those who start playing just like that, and keep playing along with players mistakes and at the end begin to tell instructions, to those who stop the orchestra in every measure to say something, .... they both take long :D

Also, there's the kind of conductor says nothing, and trust in the orchestra, those DON'T work with all orchestras, and tent to play a weak version of post-classical stuff (Mahler+). I don't like those and I won't mention one because is the hero of many, his last name begins with K.

SYS65 hehe i know who your talking about hehe!

anyway but cant an orchestra perform without a conductor??even in rehearsal , cant they all work together like each one learn his line , and they perform it together , maybe in the rehearsal they need someone to manage everything and check if any player is doing something wrong , but i think the players can perform because they all have their sheet music infront of them and they already have played the piece a lot of times! . sorry if im being ignorant hehe

anyway but cant an orchestra perform without a conductor??even in rehearsal

Depends totally on the music, Vivaldi ? yes of course, Stravinsky ? NO WAY.

Cohordination is what the conductor does, the tempo just can't be exatly the same in 80+ different minds, even if you listen carefully.

Conductors have really two major areas of knowledge that they must know:

1. Podium Technique: Basically, everything that has to do with waving one's arms around. How does the orchestra interpret what you want them to do? How do you move your body in the most efficient way to tell the orchestra what do to?
   
2. Musical Technique: Everything from music theory to orchestration to score reading. The conductor must know EVERY. SINGLE. SOLITARY. THING. IN. THE. SCORE!!! Any conductor who says otherwise is lying or naive.
   

In short, being a conductor is probably the most all-encompassing trade in the music world. By far.

i know that conducting is the most demanding music job in the world and requires a huge knowledge of music , but actually i wasnt really convinced! but after this thread actually im convinced now hehe.

The conductor does most of his job during the rehearsals, common people don't see rehearsals, only watch conductor in the concert when almost everything has been done already.

Oooooooh! So the conductor doesn't just act like a buffoon and wave his stick thingy in front of the orchestra. I really didn't see the significance of a conductor until I read that sentence. Makes sense now.

Each conductor has its style to rehearsal the orchestra, from those who start playing just like that, and keep playing along with players mistakes and at the end begin to tell instructions, to those who stop the orchestra in every measure to say something, .... they both take long :D

Well I don't know what kind of conductors you run in to, but everyone I've had the chance to rehearse with from Gergiev, Tilson Thomas to Nic Raine to all the not so famous ones play the piece (or movement) one time all the way through. Then play the difficult parts and work with things and then play the thing through one more time. Only time constraint may alter this procedure (and they do all the time!) but this is generally the way to do it

Yes I suppose that's the best way, the stopping in every bar is really frustrating for all players, the ones I was criticizing are those who don't say a word, the trombones enter too loud and he says nothing, suddenly the tam-tam sploils it all and still don't say a word, so what are they there for ?

They are used to classical works with "2,2,2,2-4,3,3, timpani+strings" as the largest orchestra, Beethoven etc, but in more modern stuff they are really bad.

I would prefer something...

I'd check percussions first, I hate bad percussions, the tam-tam size, the mallets, perhaps make them bring another tam-tam with different size for a different moment of the score (even if the score only says "Gong"), if needed la-la-la or sing them a part to tell them how I want the speed etc, give all instructions and only then start to play, the subsequent errors, talk about them and the end or stop the orchestra if it's very important.

@Ian

Actually the conductor behavior is more cold in the rehearsal, when the work is ready they display the choreographic stuff in the concert because a good conductor not only has to get the work well played, he also has to offer a good spectacle.

But the "hard" job depends on the orchestra, I've seen several times the conductor has to go and play the specific part, in some instrument, I suppose this never happens with London Symphonic Orchestra and those fine ones.

Now, if we speak of Orchestra+Chorus, the whole matter becomes problems²

Just imagine to conduct Mahler Symphony 8th (or even the 2nd), that's and ARMY

In my experience, the best conductors are those who are focused on the music more than the instruments playing the music, so the size of the ensemble is rather trivial. For example, a conductor for a large chamber work should be able to evoke the same level of sophistication and musicianship in a smaller ensemble work as s/he could in a larger ensemble work. Simon Rattle is an excellent example of someone who really drives the ensemble (no matter its size) to a higher level of expressiveness. I watched a documentary on John Adams where Rattle conducts rehearsals with the choir performing one of Adams' works. You can see him conducting the phrases in the performance, where the beat is more or less assumed among the members of the ensemble to the point that he was free to do something else.

Of course, there's a lot to be said for a conductor who sticks strictly to technique, because this requires a great deal of mastery in its own right. But this is one of those areas where I feel the conductor who can evoke a higher level of musicianship is usually (not always) the one who can go beyond technique to expand their role in a more artistic way individually. These are the conductors I pay attention to, the ones who rely on their own creativity and fully immerse themselves within to work to bring all the most significant elements to the fore in a performance.

At higher levels of professional musicianship, it's important to point out that the conductor isn't necessarily rehearsing with the ensemble to "check for accuracy." At that level, musicians know what they are doing and come fully prepared to play their part. The purpose of the rehearsal at that level is more for the conductor to explain what he is doing in a particular piece to communicate his intentions for the performance. There's a difference because where most of us are used to the conductor "correcting" us, at this level it's more about the conductor "clarifying" his aural vision or interpretation or expression of the work he is conducting... which is very different to what most of us are used to in the music experience. If a performer comes unprepared, if the conductor has to spend time making corrections, generally the performer is terminated from the ensemble and a replacement is found, because the level of musicianship expected of the professional performer is that everyone comes to the rehearsal with the same expectations of one another. If the conductor isn't prepared and the ensemble is, well it's just as bad.

Hopefully this helps fill in some of the questions you have about conductors. Some of the more concrete standards people point out (the conductor needs to know x, y, z, etc.) are actually things the conductor prepares in advance, much like the performer prepares by playing the piece on their instrument and making corrections before rehearsal. So, it's just a different level of musicianship that often yields very impressive results when everyone comes prepared. I only know this because I have professional performance experience (both as a student observer as well as a professional player) and have seen these kinds of dramas play themselves out in rehearsals time and again depending on the ensemble. The conductor's job is no more difficult than any performer's, just different in the technical aspects that are necessary for the conductor to show up to rehearsal "prepared".

I agree with everything except the last sentence:

The conductor's job is no more difficult than any performer's...

You get behind the baton and say that again.

Again, it depends on the music, let's say....

Khachaturian - Gayaneh, more difficult for the players, easier for the conductor.

Shostakovich - Sym.11, easier for the players, more difficult for the conductor.

Stravinsky - Sacre, difficult for performers and conductor,

Stockhausen - Gruppen, difficult for performers, conductor, audience, auditorium, chairs....

Stockhausen - Gruppen, difficult for performers, conductor, audience, auditorium, chairs....

AND neighbourhood pets

hahaha yes, also difficult for the Conductor's wife, and the performers brothers and all the people possibly close to that mess...

Besides it depends very much on the person, some people are just made for it, no difficulties at all, they find the way easily, others don't, is like dancing, some people are good dancing others not, I can conduct but I hate to dance, I feel myself ridiculous dancing, I bet other people doesn't feel that but would feel it conducting...