Initial Composition

This is probably the daftest question ever asked, but seeing all these perfectly orchestrated scores getting posted, I just have to ask:

How do you start writing your scores? Do you write for orchestra initially or do you write it for piano and soloists and then orchestrate it later?

I was just wondering because I usually start at the piano, but I've never orchestrated anything and I want to write a major work. I also want to include some complex things which... I don't think I'd be able to hear on a piano.

So that's why I ask. To see if you major-work composers start at the piano or not.

Just do it :) Go for it, you might want to start of with small ensembles if you haven't got any experience with orchestration. Reading some books about orchestration would help you too ;)

But the best way to learn it, is just to do it!

As Jigaat said, just go for it. Personally, I start on piano, get a melody and harmony down, then orchestrate it.

I usually don't orchestrate from a piano or anything. I like to think of the instruments themselves and since I generally use motivic devices in my writing it's a lot easier just to go in and write with the full pallet of instruments I desire.

It'll take a lot of work, but I'll take you guys' advice :D I downloaded a few books on orchestration [berlioz's and I'm still looking for Rimsky-Korsakov's] so hopefully after I finish practicing that, my harmony, and some counterpoint I'll be good to do :)

Then I'll perfect it when I get back to college.

I just mess around with instruments, mainly piano and guitar, and if i come up with a theme I like, I run with it, sometimes I trip though :D

If I understand your question correctly, you seem to be asking whether a composer will make a small ensemble version of a piece before expanding it to full orchestra. In general, orchestral pieces are conceived as such and so the composer might make a piano score before orchestrating it, but the intention is always to produce a work for full orchestra or other large ensemble. In other words, the piano score is not intended to be performed or even be performable; it is more like a sketchbook. Although chamber versions of orchestral scores exists, they are always arrangements/reductions and rarely the other way round.

It would be very complicated to write a symphony in a version for string quartet or piano quintet or whatever and then expand it for larger forces, for several reasons. Firstly, the orchestra contains a large number of instruments with very different sounds and technical capabilities available. This means that orchestral music often contains features that are well-suited to it but not to other ensembles even if they are playing an arrangement of the same piece. For example, the sound made by an entire violin section playing tremolo cannot be reproduced exactly by the violins in a string quartet and cannot be reproduced at all by a piano. Secondly, chamber music as a form has different requirements, strengths and weaknesses to orchestral music and so this must be considered. A work for orchestra must be conceived and worked out as an orchestral work, otherwise there is no point writing it for these forces.

Also, plenty of composers go straight to full score without making a piano score.

If you're still looking for Korsakov's book on orchestration its all on this site split into the separate parts: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line

It also contains some annotations that state examples of things that contradict Korsakov i.e. tutti passages played in pp which Korsakov says can't/shouldn't be done but have been done well.

If I understand your question correctly, you seem to be asking whether a composer will make a small ensemble version of a piece before expanding it to full orchestra. In general, orchestral pieces are conceived as such and so the composer might make a piano score before orchestrating it, but the intention is always to produce a work for full orchestra or other large ensemble. In other words, the piano score is not intended to be performed or even be performable; it is more like a sketchbook. Although chamber versions of orchestral scores exists, they are always arrangements/reductions and rarely the other way round.

It would be very complicated to write a symphony in a version for string quartet or piano quintet or whatever and then expand it for larger forces, for several reasons. Firstly, the orchestra contains a large number of instruments with very different sounds and technical capabilities available. This means that orchestral music often contains features that are well-suited to it but not to other ensembles even if they are playing an arrangement of the same piece. For example, the sound made by an entire violin section playing tremolo cannot be reproduced exactly by the violins in a string quartet and cannot be reproduced at all by a piano. Secondly, chamber music as a form has different requirements, strengths and weaknesses to orchestral music and so this must be considered. A work for orchestra must be conceived and worked out as an orchestral work, otherwise there is no point writing it for these forces.

Also, plenty of composers go straight to full score without making a piano score.

There's also something called a particelli score. I've heard of several notable composers using them: Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Mahler, Stravinsky, etc. Generally these are for like what Siwi here is stating where you have a work intended for orchestra. Generally you can split your staff paper into a few piano - like groups. 1 for wind choir, 1 for brass choir, etc. Or however you want. That way you can still pay attention to your different timbres and sounds while saving paper.

With the advent of the composer, short scores are usually just an extra step that isn't necessary, at lest for me. I've only used short scores once or twice during my whole career. Otherwise it's been direct composition to the full score.

...

How do you start writing your scores? Do you write for orchestra initially or do you write it for piano and soloists and then orchestrate it later?

...I was just wondering because I usually start at the piano, but I've never orchestrated anything and I want to write a major work...

I do this (see the pdf attachment)

I write at the piano, but you have to be mindful of the ensemble for which you're writing. (I'm usually writing for an 11-piece group) As the work solidifies, I start to work in a condensed score; 4 staves (2: treble/bass for horns, 2: treble/bass for rhythm section).

The orchestrational aspects will usually dictate themselves, along with all the other content.... it just happens, and it's pretty obvious to me who is supposed to get what. Comes with experience, I guess.

Works for me!