Question about composing for piano.

I do not play the piano, at least I have not had formal lessons.

I am aware, however of the importance of fingerings, as I played organ when I was little.

I was wondering when the fingerings of a piece you write for piano come into play. Who decides what the proper/recommended fingerings are, the composer or someone editing the piece? I mean, I could really only guess based on what would be easy for ME, but my fingers are weird and bend differently than other people so I'm definitely not a good source for deciding that. Am I supposed to like, learn that or something? My guess is no, because obviously, for example, I wouldn't know alternate fingerings for every single woodwind instrument so it would perhaps parallel with writing piano music. Where does a composer's responsibility end and where do editing responsibilities begin?

Thanks, guys.

"Huh, you again!" you'll say!

But during my first coffee before I kick-start the day into action...

As composer, I wouldn't bother too much about it.

Normally it's the publishers' editors who do this and you've no guarantee that if you add fingering they'll retain your version. They like to get their names somewhere on the musical map anyway.

I can think of only one reason for a composer providing fingering - i) if she/he wants a particular effect and only a specific fingering produces it.

Then again, if you want to indicate to an editor what you think the fingering should be it would do no harm.

On manuscripts and premiere performances you'd probably talk it through with the performer. You do get composers who write the unplayable - you'll find instances here!

:)

M

thanks!!

Try this: Let a friend of yours, or someone you know, play through it. If they can't play it, or their fingers break off, then you should revise your fingerings.

or their fingers break off

That would certainly be a way to taint my reputation as a composer.

Only once, I guarantee you wouldn't make the same mistake twice :)

It is generally not fingering that stands as the issue at stake in a composition as much as it is playability. As long as there is at least one logical fingering that makes sense and is possible in the tempo given, you as the composer really don't need to worry about the fingerings.

Your fingers may be awkward, and certainly the hand of Liszt is different from the hand of, say, Alicia De Larrocha (a fine 20th century pianist noted for her extremely small hands) but the fact is that every hand has five fingers and every thumb can cross under fingers 2, 3, 4, and 5, and conversely, every 2, 3, and 4th finger (and 5 in not-too-fast tempos) can cross over the thumb. Honestly, it all comes down to that, and a couple of corollaries:

1. Don't force a thumb to have to cross under to a black key (again only in faster tempos)

2. Don't write anything that is unreachable by the span of a hand and the placement of the fingers. It is not enough to say "don't write any chord that spreads greater than a major 9th" because there are a lot of impossible combinations within that. For example, try playing C-D-E-F-D with your right hand. You most likely can't. The space between the 4th and the 5th is too small.

Just be aware of which fingers are crossing to which notes, and the space between the fingers, and you'll be fine.

OR...

Write something and hand it to a pianist friend or post it on the boards here and someone (probably me because I actually like doing this sort of thing) can play it through and address unplayability issues. This is a perfectly acceptable practice for composers writing for instruments they don't play, even among accomplished adult composers.

even among accomplished adult composers.

I'm a larva composer! :wub: *gets slapped*

try playing C-D-E-F-D with your right hand. You most likely can't.

Poor example. I'm a piano studies graduate, not a master, and I can play this with very little trouble: thumb hits C and D, index finger hits E and F, and pinky hits the high D.

A better example would be a transposition of the chord you mentioned, such as B-C#-D#-E-C#. Note that lots of combinations become possible when two keys can be pressed by the same finger (often used in five-note chords, and necessary for six-note chords, such as the C-D-F-G-A-D found on the first beat of measure 26 of Debussy's La Cathedrale engloutie, right hand); however, two keys cannot be managed by the same finger unless they are only a step apart and the same color. When both are black, however, only the thumb can reasonably strike them simultaneously.

Poor example. I'm a piano studies graduate, not a master, and I can play this with very little trouble: thumb hits C and D, index finger hits E and F, and pinky hits the high D.

Or better yet.... pull a Bartok and do C,D, and E with your thumb, do F with your index, and do D with your

pinky.

Maybe others could do that easily. I have tiny hands, about as big as most girls I've met, so it's far easier for me to use my thumb on two keys. Interestingly enough, though my hands are small, my span is nearly as big as other pianists with bigger hands, and I can reach some tenths.

thanks for all the tips.

I am currently working on this particular Faure piece that has these chords which are not arpeggiated and are impossible for my fingers to reach to play simultaneously, even with the recommended fingering. It's driving me crazy that even though I have this whole section memorized and up to tempo, I'm forced to fake playing that one recurring chord as it is written and instead, sort of run through it really, really quickly it to get a similar effect.

My durned little creaky fingers!!

As composer, I wouldn't bother too much about it.

Normally it's the publishers' editors who do this and you've no guarantee that if you add fingering they'll retain your version. They like to get their names somewhere on the musical map anyway.

I can think of only one reason for a composer providing fingering - i) if she/he wants a particular effect and only a specific fingering produces it.

Then again, if you want to indicate to an editor what you think the fingering should be it would do no harm.

On manuscripts and premiere performances you'd probably talk it through with the performer. You do get composers who write the unplayable - you'll find instances here!

;)

M

montpellier has raised several good points. I especially agree with the bolded part, supposing it's an instrument that I do not play. Fingering is more important for instruments such as the guitar, where playing the same note on different strings cn produce completely different results. If it's convenient, I would insert fingering. However, if you have no idea but know that the piece definitely is playable, perhaps you should ask a friend to help you, or simply leave it.

If you're sending a piano work off to publishers for review, you really should include fingerings. Learn what fingerings are appropriate and helpful, and add them in. While the editors may mess with them somewhat, having fingerings, like having a neatly arranged score, helps convince the publishers that you know what you're doing. Also, if they agree with your fingerings, it's one less step for them, which is another selling point. It's not like fingerings are going to discourage a publisher from producing your work, so there's really no reason not to.