Timpani Rolls

Is a timpani roll notated with those tremolo-type lines through the stem or a trill? Or can it be either? What have you guys seen used for the most part?

Oh also - I remember reading somewhere that you should generally end timpani rolls on the first beat of the next measure rather than on the last beat of the measure you really intend it to end (was that clear?) Why is this? Is it hard to smoothly end a roll on a end of a final beat in a measure? Or is this just nitpicking really - what would you advise? I mean, I just don't really know what to make of it.

I'd like to know the same thing. Right now I use tremolo lines.

Three tremolo lines is correct. You end them on the downbeat of the first measure just like you'd normally end a note. If you don't end on the downbeat of the next bar, you end up with a gap of sound, or in the case of a roll on timpani, the sound will start to die away too early.

You can write either three tremelo lines or a trill. Both are published.

So far as writing to the next beat, it goes for any instrument. Players tend not to play notes long enough any more - they end them early. So perhaps if you're writing for an amateur group, write longer notes than needed - but if you're getting it played by a pro group, the chances are you may find some of your notes are played too long!

Good practice dictates that if you want a note to end on the third beat, you write a two beat note. The player should play to the end of the second beat, which is the start of the third beat.

I have two references which dissagree as well.

Standard Score Format : Layout and Notation by William Maloof Suggests calls for the Unmeasured Tremolo.

But, in Orchestration, by Walter Piston, the trill is called for. Later on in the snare section he suggests the trill has the advantage that you can, with the length of the squiggly line, show the duration of the roll rather accurately.

My old band director did a lot of writting for percussion and always used the tremolo lines. If you're not writting a held roll, but rather, like a seven-stroke roll over two counts, he'd use a seven-note tuplet with a tie over all of it, which I've seen other places as well. It signifies a seven-stroke roll for how ever many counts the tuplet takes up. I've also seen a halfnote with a small number 7 over it to signify seven stroke roll over 2 counts.

I use the trill, because that's what Classicists used. But as David said, both are quite valid.

Wow, I knew I had a good reason for asking but not this good! See, a series of responses like this is a lot more helpful to me than one rather unhelpful blurb in a bad library book. :o Thank you dearly.

But, in Orchestration, by Walter Piston, the trill is called for. Later on in the snare section he suggests the trill has the advantage that you can, with the length of the squiggly line, show the duration of the roll rather accurately.

I never thought of that. Interesting.

Surely one indicates the length of trill with the note...

That's what I thought - is the trill supposed to suggest duration at all? No one ever told me that.

I just dusted Piston's book.

He doesn't say it "can, with the length of the squiggly line, show the duration of the roll rather accurately" but he says that it "has the advantage of showing the exact duration of the roll more vividly". I assume he means that the tremelo only indicates on the note, whereas the trill is written lengthwise until close to the next note or rest. He doesn't imply that the trill and termelo are in anyway different for rolls.

I just dusted Piston's book.

He doesn't say it "can, with the length of the squiggly line, show the duration of the roll rather accurately" but he says that it "has the advantage of showing the exact duration of the roll more vividly". I assume he means that the tremelo only indicates on the note, whereas the trill is written lengthwise until close to the next note or rest. He doesn't imply that the trill and termelo are in anyway different for rolls.

Thank you for clarifying, David - I was paraphrasing.

Both ways of notating a roll are correct.

I, myself, prefer trill notation because its easy to visualize.

In most pieces I've played the notation has been trill. I would say about 55% use trill and 45% use tremolo.

However, if you are writing for an inexperienced performer I would use tremolo because younger player are more used to tremolo like most snare rolls are notated with.

As to the length question, it may be better to carry the end to the downbeat. When you roll on a timpani,it's all about fast, steady hands. (I try to move about 32nd notes if it's not too fast) It's very hard to stop on the last 32nd note of a roll, (it can be done, but it's hard).

Hope that helped.

David, ditto, thanks for clarifying.

tenorman008: :P very helpful. I can visualize it better now.

I use the tremolo marking. As for writing in a downbeat, this is up to the composer and may be omitted if a downbeat stroke is undesirable - for example, if a roll is used alongside a decrescendo in a string passage and the composer wants the timpani to just die off, rather than having a last, too-pronounced stroke. Most of the time, though, I put a single quarter note in the measure after the roll, because in most cases that final stroke is needed.