Studying composition

I've been composing before I even started school, so maybe it's just me, but I find it hard to believe someone can just, while studying at a conservatory or such, become a good composer if they've just looked at the list of what classes to take, and said "Oh, composition! That sounds cool." and actually become a good composer.

Because composition, I think, is something natural, and not something you do just because you're taking a composition class in school.

What do you think?

Can anything good come out of only school-based composition?

Schools cultivate an environment where you can learn the techniques of composition. They also conveniently give you many ensembles to write for. Besides that, the school is irrelevant. Composition is one of those art forms that cannot be taught, only guided. The composer must make an effort on his/her own behalf to figure out how to compose something. This is the misconception that private lessons teach you anything about composition. They only teach either techniques, which are colored by the preferences of the teacher, or methods and "solutions" to problems in pieces, and those can be even further colored by the teacher. There is hardly any "objective" standard when it comes to learning composition. (Just to be sure I'm not misunderstood, there IS objective technique, just not objective creativity.)The creative part of composition is not subject to any "rules" or "regulations" unlike the theory textbook. The only thing school can possibly *teach* is objective technique. And most of the time, this is done in theory or orchestration courses rather than composition courses itself.

I agree, btw, that no one can just go into school and come out a good composer. One must have talent, passion, creativity, AND a desire for the music to be above all else in their life. And that's before they step in the door. If any of those are missing, they're not a true composer IMO.

I don't agree. School as helped me tremendously when it comes to composing. It both gives me new perspectives on music, and challenges me to create new things. That being said, I don't think people who just see it on a list and don't work on becoming better are going to be good composers. I do agree, though, that there as to be some degree of talent. I know quite a few people whom the professor has told to drop either composition classes or change their major.

I pursued composition-oriented coursework throughout college, almost exclusively. From this I learned how to become a better musician (specifically, percussionist). In my experience, I would include orchestration, counterpoint, theory, AURAL SKILLS, form and analysis, jazz theory, music survey courses (18th, 19th, and 20th Century), history, instrumental methods (brass, woodwinds, strings, percussion, etc.), conducting, and ensemble participation all under the umbrella of "composition".

Applied lessons on instruments and in composition were areas where I felt "education" was hardly an applicable word to use. I didn't really "learn" or "apply" anything objective in these courses directly relevant to composition. Most of the time in composition lessons was spent looking at music I wrote with some mind-numbing debate over the "modernism" of the material and pandering over philosophical subject matter that had little if anything to do with composition.

Most time spent in instrumental lessons was on performance technique and developing a practice routine. Seemed to me like composition lessons COULD have been better spent developing a routine for composing instead of wasting time deliberating the merits of using tonal harmony, what kinds of techniques we should consider "modern", etc. But it was what it was and may be different depending on where you study.

All in all, I think a composition-exclusive curriculum is perfectly viable for those with an interest in music. Unfortunately, it's the administration and general philosophical meandering around issues that gets in the way of this... so, in theory, I think it works. It worked for me, even though the schools I attended probably never intended for their courses to be taken in this way, but it isn't necessarily practical depending on where you study.

I also disagree with Tokke. Composition can absolutely be taught - one can become a "good" composer through diligent study and nothing more. Composition requires no more talent than any plumber, veterinarian or accountant.

... To be Great, however, might necessitate some inherent and natural aptitude.

;)

Wow, Robin. 5,000 posts!

Someone deserves a cookie. :D

Anyone can become successful at just about anything if they set their mind to it. including composition.

Go out and cut your teeth on gigs. That'll learn you faster'n anything about composing.

But like any of the other arts, school can do nothing but help you hone your craft. Being more theoritically aware will help, period.

And most importantly, university is what you make of it. A LOT of your studies occurs outside of the classroom with extracurricular activities. MAKE THE MOST OF YOUR TIME IN UNI. Get gigs, write as much as you can, have your colleagues read your stuff for an hour in exchange for dinner, experiment, learn the OTHER notation software, learn how to rock out a DAW, do whatever you feel will help you in your journey as a composer and musician.

Good luck!

In the spirit of music.

-P

...have your colleagues read your stuff for an hour in exchange for dinner...

It works! College students are food hoes.

Of course good things can come out of school-based composition. During my undergrad graduation ceremony there was a speech about how many of us music majors would not sustain careers in music, statistically speaking. That sounds disheartening, but on the flip side the rigorous curriculum that was largely self-guided (music really is a self-guided pursuit, like many arts - you have to get yourself in the practice room and decide what you want out of lessons and practice, you have to keep yourself from running away from a blank sheet of manuscript paper) prepared us for nearly anything that could be thrown at us. I mean that. Not in a technical way, of course, but to major in any aspect of music you have to be self-driven and be able to come up with numerous ways to tackle various problems. You're always moving. Studying music isn't some desk job where everything is laid out clearly in front of you and you get to go home at night and forget about what you've done during the day. Music is a lifestyle, and it requires incredible management skills. Ideally those skills are what you develop during your time in school, and you can apply what you learn elsewhere in your life.

Now, specifically in a composition path it is unlikely that you will be taught how to get out a composition. I don't think anyone can teach you how to write music. That's something you develop on your own. What you will be shown in school are forms and techniques and literature that you probably wouldn't have discovered on your own. School also gives you new perspectives and connections to musicians, which is so important because if you're composing you NEED to hear your music. Played by real people (unless you only write electronic works). You improve by handing musicians music and watching them react to what's on the paper. You learn from hearing your "miscalculations." Getting performances outside of school is a difficult task unless you're already established in some way, or always play your own music.

I'll harp on this again: If you're not learning about composition in your non-composition classes, you're doing college wrong. EG, you take a circuits course -- apply that to music via acoustics and mixing. You take a political science course, apply those same analysis skills to your ethnomusicology courses, see the power structures, etc. Taking an art history course? Compare it to your music history.

In other words, realize that learning isn't compartmentalized, and gain as much as you can from your classes. And that's where school, to me, helps. You're forced to take things outside of your comfort zone, which means you gain different perspectives.

You can be a "good" composer no matter what you do, school or not. After all, this hangs on the ever-so-elusive-and-subjective definition of "good" here.

I've been composing before I even started school, so maybe it's just me, but I find it hard to believe someone can just, while studying at a conservatory or such, become a good composer if they've just looked at the list of what classes to take, and said "Oh, composition! That sounds cool." and actually become a good composer.

Because composition, I think, is something natural, and not something you do just because you're taking a composition class in school.

What do you think?

Can anything good come out of only school-based composition?

a little bit of no, but more yes.

Like what a lot people are saying already, you dont go to school to learn how to compose, you go to hone your own skills as a composer. Though one must have the skills to become a good composer, it is at school that helps(theoretically) pull out that talent. I know for me, if I didnt transfer to the school that I am now, I would not be the composer I am today. I was lucky enough to have a professor that pushed me out of my comfort zone while letting me choose my own path. I know for me, if I wasnt in school I would have stagnated a long time ago and would have not progressed to the level I am at now.

For some, school isnt for them and they can become better composers with out it. For others, its a place to sharpen their skills under the guidance of a professional. Some get lucky and get an amazing professor that really helps, others get unlucky and get professors that do little or nothing to help them. It all depends on who you are and who you are with.

Look you learn to do something "well" by trial and error. All school does is show past figures' process of trial and error and how they formulated principles, when bored with them figured out a new set etc. Now, having someone outside yourself assist you with this process can be a great accelerator of your progress or so detrimental that you are better off doing it alone.

As for "good" composition - I always love the lyrics of this Talking head song the "Good Thing"

Lyrics

http://www.metrolyrics.com/the-good-thing-lyrics-talking-heads.html

Ithink it is not immediately required university, college or conservatory to go if you want to be a composer and, above all want to be a good composer. The schools will learn iylen itself composing of the structures, stages, variation, situations, actions and funds kapősz a while until the degree to which it is written that "Music". But whether you have a paper in your hand you have written to the composer, you'll still be a great gently caress too. I say of music learning and himself that someone says to allow himself to be a composer, bringeth enough home lerülni and to study a profession, trade books to buy or the Internet to learn. Of course good to have a teacher who can help, but best on straight roads, yourself, to boot.

Maybe my 2 cents will be interesting here, since I try to compose, but I never took lessons for it.

In the spirit of SCC it's useless to argue whether college/ lessons/classes/teachers will make you a better composer, since the term 'better' means nothing. What does mean something though is your personal goal and what college/lessons/classes/treachers can contribute to that goal. And the term 'personal goal' says it all, I think. If you go into college or take a course in composition with the idea that they will provide you with a goal, you are wrong. College/lessons/classes/teachers can, however, contribute a lot to you if YOU take the responsibility to where and what they should contribute. If you have at least a vague idea about what is important for you to become what you want to become at the level that you want to reach college/lessons/classes/teachers can be very effective. It will, however, not be impossible to go without it. If you keep figuring out what you need to know to stay on track there is no reason you shouldn't stay on track. There is a lot information on every compositional subject. You just need to figure out where to get it and how to deal with the information.

As for me my goal is to combine counterpointal music (without any rules to it) and pop music. I actualy realized I wanted to be able to do this when I had just started being interested in music. I don't mean to brag, but I don't think it's kind of funny, since it's so specific. Anyhow, I just went and try to do it and it turned out to be difficult. I realised I had to learn to a lot about music and composional techniques and I knew nothing. Besides I wasn't going to have an awfull lot of time ot spent on it, since I just started college and my major had nothing to do with music. I degreaded it to a hobby and went out to learn what I tought I needed to learn. I'm now 8 years further and I haven't reached my goals yet. Although I'm getting nearer.

So, did/do I need college/lessons/classes/teachers? No. I will probebly reach my goal sooner or later. But, if had done so I would have probebly reached that goal sooner.

So, again, I think it all depents on your goal. Where do you want to be and how quick do you want to be there? If you have an answer to these questions you will probebly also know whether or not college/lessons/classes/treachers will be a neccasity, beneficial, etc.

WHAT'S YOUR GOAL AND WHAT DO YOU NEED TO REACH IT?

Anyone can compose if they practice it. To become a good composer however requires creativity, which can not be taught.

LoL Gijs are your sig

I thought it was hilarious. Also because I wanted to say something like that to the OP, but I didn't dare too..

Anyone can compose if they practice it. To become a good composer however requires creativity, which can not be taught.

Luckily almost every human being has a creative mind, it's the reason why we can do practically anything beyond basic survival, it's an important reason for the success of our species if you ask me.

But if we start talking in relative terms I don't think a "less creative human" whatever that means, will have a harder time composing, he might compose a different kind of music, maybe with a focus on virtuosity for example.

As for me my goal is to combine counterpointal music (without any rules to it) and pop music.

I love this.

As far as going to school for composing. One thing that will be good is that you will have the ability to compose and have it scrutinized by experienced musicians and composers.

I agree that it allows you to hone technique, and there is no denying that there is objective technique. What does it take to become great? According to a lot of research recently, it takes about 10,000 hours of direct, concentrated practice. Have you composed for 10,000 hours in your life? I know I haven't, so that is something I am working on.

But it can't just be any old 10,000 hours. You have to be focused and look at improving specific points of your technique. Just like a pro tennis player doesn't go out to the court and say, "I am gonna get better at serving today," instead they would probably say, "I am going to make sure I keep my head up right after serving the ball," or whatever specfic technique will improve their game, just a little bit more.

Basically you have to keep on keepin'on, regardless of where you go.

I would suggest it to someone who is just starting out on composition. For a young composer to find their individual style of writing, I would suggest teaching yourself and finding out as much as you want to know without anyone telling you what to do and what not to do. Look at the American composer Charles Ives for instance, he never had any teacher as such to teach him how to compose, and look at all the amazing stuff he's written.

I think it is develop and it is is environment you are in and willing to learn as well as experiment.Also incorporating what you learn at school into your music will definitely help with your music.It really helps and more the do it the better become.