Music and Emotion

I have to say that music can indeed awake emotions, and therefore I say that music is LOADED with emotions.

The emotions are in the listener, not the music...

;)

Hey Robin, your avatar's broken.

Hey Robin, your avatar's broken.

Are you sure?

;)

Yea, totally sure. It's coming up with an error message.

:huh:

Nah, you're just stupid. I can see it fine.

It's broken for me... Just sayin. :P

Also, I think music is very emotional. At least, it should be. I guess I agree that music in and of itself, is without emotion. But it provides a way for us to feel emotions. Music is often composed with emotion, thus the emotion comes out through the piece. I know that when I write music, it's usually when I need to feel something that I can't express otherwise.

I like your posts, Tokkemon. But unfortunately, you are kind of hitting a dead end in this discussion.

I quite agree with your opinion, that "intellect and logic" do NOT make good music. That emotion is the primary driver of what inspires people. You can have the same notes, yet, if played without emotion, is meaningless (this is regarding performance). As for composition, you can have the most complicated melody in the world, but if it inspires nothing in the listener, it is also meaningless.

However, just because you and I and some others may share this opinion, does not mean everyone does. Some composers are well in the camp that emotions are arbitrary and subjective, and that there is no universal rule for emotions. They believe any music can be emotional and enjoyable. While we may not agree with this, we can also simply run around in circles discussing it, because the world of music is so diverse, so expansive, that there are really no absolutes, and millions upon millions of exceptions.

However, I will encourage you to pursue this discussion further, and I believe scientific experimentation is the best way to do it. Get a few test subjects, make sure they are in controlled states of emotion, and play them different pieces and see how they respond. That will give you a very basic data set of what music inspires emotion and what kinds of music don't.

From there on, testing can go infinitely, so I would highly encourage you to collect as much data as possible, perhaps, you should see if any researchers or psychology majors will help you out.

I support you on this, and look forward to hearing future discussions on this matter.

It's broken for me...

No, it's not...

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.... They believe any music can be emotional and enjoyable. While we may not agree with this...

How can you possbly disagree with it?

How can you possbly disagree with it?

Simple. By not assuming everything is relative.

Simple. By not assuming everything is relative.

Let's test to see how 'relative' it is. I will state a piece that to me engenders a great deal of emotional response. State whether you feel the piece gives you the same feelings. If not, what piece gives you that emotional response. State it. And I'll give my opinion of it.

I absolutely LOVE Beethoven's 7th, 2nd Movement (the Allegretto). When I listen to it, I get a real sense (emotionally) of what it means to be human. The conflicts, the rise, the fall, and the raw pure emotions of it. To me, music doesn't get any better than the 2nd Movement of the Seventh. One of the most important emotions I get out of the movement is anxiety over one's mortality.

However, I will encourage you to pursue this discussion further, and I believe scientific experimentation is the best way to do it. Get a few test subjects, make sure they are in controlled states of emotion, and play them different pieces and see how they respond. That will give you a very basic data set of what music inspires emotion and what kinds of music don't.

From there on, testing can go infinitely, so I would highly encourage you to collect as much data as possible, perhaps, you should see if any researchers or psychology majors will help you out.

Do read my posts on this thread.

We've got quite a lot of data on how music generates emotion on a neurological level, etc etc.

People can get "emotion" out of literally anything. Complex emotions come the more the person is familiar with the language.

Do read my posts on this thread.

We've got quite a lot of data on how music generates emotion on a neurological level, etc etc.

People can get "emotion" out of literally anything. Complex emotions come the more the person is familiar with the language.

Your posts, while supported by data and well-intentioned, do not actually answer the question of whether music "sans" emotion is worth listening to. You bring up the point that you derive emotions based on the chord, or based on the context.

Tokkemon is arguing something much different, which is, does the music transcend mere technical interplay?

For example, people are right in saying that even a C major scale can evoke SOME emotional reaction, but is it really going to have the same emotional provocativeness as the opening lines of Beethoven's 5th? Hardly.

Chords by themselves are meaningless, you can hear it and feel nothing. But it's what's around the chord that makes it meaningful - i.e., how did the composer build up the section, what melodic, dynamics, and harmonic elements did they use, to make that exact chord MEANINGFUL in some way?

So I can go on my computer right now, and write out a couple of simple chords and melodies, and maybe it'll sound good, maybe not. But is it worth listening to? No.

There's a difference between something that sounds good, and something that's worth listening to.

People have generally figured out, that if you have 4 measures, start with the minor chord, and then do 2 other chords, finish up with the dominant chord, and go back to the minor chord, you are almost 100% guaranteed to have a good sounding song. Don't believe me, try it.

But is it worth listening to? No. Because there's none of that hidden, that intangible emotional factor involved.

Your posts, while supported by data and well-intentioned, do not actually answer the question of whether music "sans" emotion is worth listening to. You bring up the point that you derive emotions based on the chord, or based on the context.

In reality music itself has, inherently, no emotion at all. It can generate emotional reactions, but this depends on the listener. The experience of music can cause things.

As for the rest of what you're saying it's not something scientific at all, it's just superficial context. It doesn't matter if YOU think it's not worth listening to, someone may think the opposite and for good reason.

But is it worth listening to? No. Because there's none of that hidden, that intangible emotional factor involved.

No such thing as "hidden" "intangible" emotional factor. At least there's no reason to think there is such a thing when mostly everything about this side of music can be already explained without resorting to esoteric crap like that.

It doesn't matter if YOU think it's not worth listening to, someone may think the opposite and for good reason.

Thank you! :)

I like this discussion and find it thought provoking.

My take on this topic is to use visual images as a parallel.

Please take a look at these three images – all based on the color red.

Red 1 - http://www.homeplateheroes.com/Bright%20Red%20Suede.jpg

Red 2 - http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds2-5/red-rose-side.jpg

Red 3 - http://hypermedia.educ.psu.edu/k-12/units/expression/munch.scream.jpg

Excuse this analogy but I think its pretty good - The first image in and of itself cannot express absolute emotion because it lacks context even though we might have a personal response to it. In the second image, based on the same color, a clear emotion is expressed but it will still be relative to the viewer's interpretation though to many people depending on your cultural or environmental associations, it will mean romance or something derived from that. In some cultures roses mean jealosy. To some it is a symbol of respect. You get the point - the exact meaning is open to interpretation but it seems to generally mean the same thing to people of similar histories and cultures. In the third image, I think most cultures will see this as an intense and private gutural pain. But that isn't exactly what it means to everyone. I've heard someone refer to it as a bad LSD trip. Edvard Munch said that The Scream represented the "infinite scream of nature." In an interview with Sue Prideaux, Munch recalled a time when he was on the verge of madness, and, as he walked with friends, the sun set in a sky that was nearly blood red. Exhausted, he felt an overwhelming anxiety. He said, "You know my picture, The Scream? I was stretched to the limit -nature was screaming in my blood... After that I gave up hope of ever being able to love again." So it can mean different things to different people but within a framework that I would assume is universal (I doubt anyone would see it as a happy picture even those who have never seen symbolist art however to Munch it was more about loss of hope towards unrequitted love; to me it is a general private pain).

I think we can apply this to music - red can't in and of itself have a meaning just like the note C can't have a meaning without its broader contextual framework. But the end result is still relative and open to interpretation though the more context that is given, the more sophisticated and nuanced the final interpretation can be, it is still relative to one's experiences and personal feelings.

Well, I didn't really look through everything, but I think that emotion comes from the way it's played more than the music. Sure, you could play a Mahler symphony and get Tokke all teary, but if the musician doesn't put his/her all into it, then it won't have emotion in the music.

And Robin's avatar is broken. I must be too stupid to view it :P

Heckel

...

Red 1 - http://www.homeplate...Red%20Suede.jpg

Red 2 - http://www.mccullagh...d-rose-side.jpg

The first image in and of itself cannot express absolute emotion because it lacks context even though we might have a personal response to it. In the second image, based on the same color, a clear emotion is expressed but it will still be relative to the viewer's interpretation though to many people depending on your cultural or environmental associations, it will mean romance or something derived from that. In some cultures roses mean jealosy. To some it is a symbol of respect. You get the point - the exact meaning is open to interpretation but it seems to generally mean the same thing to people of similar histories and cultures.

"absolute emotion" is not equivalent to "...seems to generally mean..."

I don't quite get what you're trying to explain here.

Does the colour Red in and of itself have no generally accepted connotations?

...red can't in and of itself have a meaning just like the note C can't have a meaning without its broader contextual framework.

I disagree.

I disagree.

Well, colors are fundamentally diferent from sounds in that with tones, the important thing is the intervals, not the specific frequences themself. But with colors, the specific frequences themselves are for some reason more important.

Think about it, most people couldn't tell you if a single note was a C or not, but most people could tell you that a single color was "red".

And that is not to say that context is not important with color, or that the specific intervals don't have SOME diference in music.

Well, colors are fundamentally diferent from sounds in that with tones, the important thing is the intervals, not the specific frequences themself. But with colors, the specific frequences themselves are for some reason more important.

Think about it, most people couldn't tell you if a single note was a C or not, but most people could tell you that a single color was "red".

And that is not to say that context is not important with color, or that the specific intervals don't have SOME diference in music.

You realize that people do associate colors with particular emotions as well. Hence the concept of 'mood rings'. There are also people who associate certain pitches with emotions as well. Ditto with single chords. The truth is, a person can associate anything with an emotional response - that is just how humans are wired. There's an entire branch of psychology associated with emotional associations and the like - as SSC has said above, lots of interesting stuff to read even.

Personally I like music which expresses (or elicits, depending on one's views) deep emotions and at the same time the denial or restriction of these emotions. That's why I admire Bach so much, and dislike most late-romantic composers (especially Mahler and Rachmaninov).

I have little sympathy for people who cry easily; they annoy me infinitely. But there's nothing more touching, I believe, than someone with a stiff upper lip who tries very hard NOT to cry. But then, I'm very much out of touch with the touchy-feely nonsense of our times.

You realize that people do associate colors with particular emotions as well. Hence the concept of 'mood rings'. There are also people who associate certain pitches with emotions as well. Ditto with single chords. The truth is, a person can associate anything with an emotional response - that is just how humans are wired. There's an entire branch of psychology associated with emotional associations and the like - as SSC has said above, lots of interesting stuff to read even.

Sure, it's called syntheasia. I was just being general about it. Infact, I'm reading a book called musicophilia that talks a lot about music-visual syntheasia. The books also talks a lot about absolute (or perfect) pitch, and one of the interesting things that I learned was that infants, when tested to discern diferent melodies, relied more on absolute pitch cues than the adults did. I'm not sure exactly how the test worked, but the results seem to indicate that in our childhood we all have absolute pitch. (or at least the potential for it) The author also tells of a community somewhere in the pacific where all the residents have absolute pitch. Once again, I'm not entirley sure if that is true or not, but the prospect is interesting. And I think we all still have some potential for absolute pitch.

For example listen to

Does something sound "off" at all to you? This song's key is about half way between F# and G. We all have the same absolute pitch reference that people with absolute pitch have, we just haven't developed it yet. It instantly sounds off to us because it is using a pitch we are not firmiliar with.

I did some specailzed perfect pitch ear traning for awhile, and I was able to distinguish a few absolute pitches. Although most of the time it was slow, I remember one time at a piano recital being able to tell instantly that one piece someone was playing was in G.

Interestingly enough, some of the hardest pitches to distinguish for me were the ones located a fifth apart. I always had problems with A and E for example. Sometimes for example, I would be able to tell that a pitch was either A or E, but I wasn't entirley sure exactly which one it was.

The brain is a muscle, who says we can't just excercize the muscles used for absolute pitch discrimination? I didn't continue with my ear training, but it worked for me while I was doing it.

Sure, it's called syntheasia. I was just being general about it....

No....

As previously mentioned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red#Symbolism

No....

As previously mentioned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red#Symbolism

I was talking about pitches and emotions, not colors and emotions. It could either be a type of absolute pitch, or syntheasia. (which really is COLORS with pitches, but whatever...) That is besides just the general acceptance that higher pitches are brighter, and lower pitches are warmer.

For example listen to

.

Does something sound "off" at all to you? This song's key is about half way between F# and G. We all have the same absolute pitch reference that people with absolute pitch have, we just haven't developed it yet. It instantly sounds off to us because it is using a pitch we are not firmiliar with.

Other than sucking, no I can't hear anything "off" about it. First off, TONS of bands tune about quarter-step off, and because of different tuning systems over the centuries, there's no absolute to pitch. SSC or other history buffs can probably rip it to shreds, but Wikipedia gives an overview. What also can make it sound off is the nasal quality to the voice, or the mixing. Or the encoding. Or or or.

Also, there's a lot more psychologically about a melody, say, than pitch. Compare Wayne Shorter, Coltrane, and Ornette all hitting the same note on the same instrument... NOT at all the same emotional effect.

Other than sucking, no I can't hear anything "off" about it. First off, TONS of bands tune about quarter-step off, and because of different tuning systems over the centuries, there's no absolute to pitch. SSC or other history buffs can probably rip it to shreds, but Wikipedia gives an overview. What also can make it sound off is the nasal quality to the voice, or the mixing. Or the encoding. Or or or.

Also, there's a lot more psychologically about a melody, say, than pitch. Compare Wayne Shorter, Coltrane, and Ornette all hitting the same note on the same instrument... NOT at all the same emotional effect.

Maybe I've just got a bigger (insert part of the brain whose name illudes me that is bigger in people with absolute pitch here) than you do. In all seriousness though, this G half-sharp music did have a diferent chroma to it that I just can't attribute to timbre. I had the very same effect when I used scala to render my keyboard 1/4 tone sharp. The intervals were the same, but the tones themselves were diferent, and I could tell.

And besides, I'm not saying that 440 is natural, or that there even is any pitch more natural than other pitches. I know that pitch varied a lot throught musical history. In fact, let me do you one further and cite a source for that. That is entirley besides my point. No sir, I am not one of these nutjobs.

All that I am saying is that there is a means (or a potental) in which humans discriminate between pitches just like we discriminate light of diferent wavelengths to be red or blue. But for some reason or another, most of us have lost this ability/ignored this potential. Now, maybe there is good reason that this is not carried into adulthood for most people, maybe not. (Apparentley in Japan 70% of musicains have absolute pitch) Like I said, this is just a theory of myne, and although I find it's prospect interesting, I can't completley justify it with fact. (yet)

I think one could compare intervals to shapes, and tones themselves to colors. Another point I made, we can all tell that a higher pitched note is brighter than a lower pitched note, but we just don't use the absolute pitch portions of our brains enough to really see distinct colors. (even though they are there)

One final disclaimer, this all has a lot to do with the cognitave and phycological aspect of music, a subject that I do not know very much about at the moment.